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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:23 pm 
Jasper wrote:
How come I can't embed youtube clips on this forum?


I read that and LOL'd



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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:10 pm 
You're the best buddy! Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:56 pm 
Review: Polini Variator

Image

To this day, I have yet to find a better price than ScooterSwapShop.
http://scooterswapshop.com/store/polini-ruckus-variator
If you're in the market for one, contact the owner (graphite9) and see if he could hook you up with a good deal. I wouldn't be surprised if his prices are even lower than some of the used ones on here, if you could even find one.

Hopefully this review will help fellow new members and perhaps even the OG's on here. Nonetheless, it is definitely worth documenting my findings even for my own future reference. On this forum, the Polini Variator is by far the most recommended modification to your ruckus to make it "faster." What does it actually mean to be faster? Some members believe that throwing in a polini will make the ruck accelerate better. Others think it will give you more top speed. Alot of these findings, however, comes from butt dynos and word of mouth. Thanks to JamesDean's research, his findings indicate that the polini, amongst other competitors, is the best variator available on the market and that was why I ended up going with it. So what makes the polini the king of variators? The polini variator, according to James dyno charts, holds the RPM within the narrowest range. Holding the RPM within the narrowest range in a CVT transmission will allow you to use the peak horsepower while accelerating but also at vmax without overrevving your engine.

Curious as to whether the Polini variator is really that great, I set about experimenting with it by only changing one variable at a time to understand better. After two weeks of experimenting, however, my findings indicate that the stock variator out accelerates the Polini, using the same 5G slider weights. On the otherhand, the polini variator, using the same weight, unleashes a lot more top speed that the stock variator will never achieve. The question is, how much horsepower are you putting down and will you ever/how long does it take to reach your top speed? A "fast" 50cc ruckus in my definition is one that can out accelerate daily commuting cars and keep up with traffic. In my area, that critical range would be from 0-43mph. While I am ecstatic about my Ruck joining the 50mph club, I prefer the ruck to accelerate like it did with the stock variator (or even better). I might reconsider the Polini variator if my ruckus puts down more horsepower like JamesDean's ruckus or the road to work is an undisturbed 50mph highway. However for my particular setup I would look elsewhere for better acceleration. I would now love to try a KN variator to compare but that will have to wait until next time!


Therefore, my conclusion of the polini variator is inline with some of the members here: it will reduce your acceleration but increase your top speed (compared to the stock variator. I might have been more happy with the KN variator, but who knows until I try it

To be fair, does the Polini really hurt your acceleration that bad? No. You might not even notice the loss of acceleration using the same weights but on the tachometer and 0-30mph times it is indeed slightly slower than with the stock variator. Proper tuning with lighter weights might remedy the effects while preserving the awesome top speed.

As the ruckus is more important for my daily commute to work, acceleration from 0-45mph and maintaining that vmax is more important than proving how fast my ruckus will go. You might ask why are my findings discrepant from a few others who claimed improved acceleration? The Polini kit comes with not only a redesigned variator, but also a variety of weights lighter than stock. Improved acceleration from lighter weights and a overall better designed variator is expected. Acceleration, however, it not maximized for example when comparing to a stock variator.

To wrap this up, let`s look at a few pictures to compare the stock variator to the Polini variator

Image
The Backplate: Some members have said the backplate is different to allow for a more aggressive acceleration profile. From here, it looks like the two plates have the same angle although I could be wrong. However, the Polini plate has a smoother finish for reduced friction as well as missing cutouts. I believe this will help prevent belt dust from entering the ramps. The sliders on the Polini are direction oriented and only fits one way. Finally the polini plate feels lighter as well.

The Spacer: The Polini spacer is ever so slightly longer (~0.25mm). This should allow for a "lower" gear during acceleration and therefore improved acceleration.

Image
The Variator: Some say the polini variator has a larger face. This is not true as the two variators are essentially identical in diameter. What is different, however, as shown in the picture are the ramps. A very common mod on other scooter forums is to lengthen the ramp. How do you do that? By grinding material away from the ramp furthest away from the center. As you can see here, that "trick" is utilized and therefore the rollers/sliders can move further up the ramp and effectively push the belt higher for a higher vmax gear. So indeed, with the right hp and roller weights, the polini variator will exceed the vmax offered by the stock variator.

Unfortunately I forgot to take a picture but on the other side of the polini variator you will find a rubber o-ring in the center not found on the stock variator. This rubber gasket, i believe, is to prevent belt dust from entering the roller ramps. However, it also generates a considerable amount of friction when you spin the variator on the spacer. Therefore proper break-in might be needed for the variator to spin freely and not waste the engine's power.


Finally, the weight of the polini variator is considerably less than the stock variator. The rotating mass reduced alone should provide marginally better acceleration similar to a JW lightened flywheel.

Stock variator
Image


Polini Variator
Image



Will report back at the 600mile mark for a mid-term review of the polini variator!

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Last edited by Jasper on Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:00 am 
Next up: 4.5g roller weights

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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:11 pm 
Just a note--my understanding is that the Polini offers good acceleration for "lighter" riders, and the KN will do the same for "heavier" riders (with unspecified definitions!)

congrats on hitting 51 mph!

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 Post subject: Re: GET joins the 51mph club today! (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:29 pm 
Most definitely. The lighter riders off the bat will experience better acceleration than heavier riders, regardless of which variator used, because the engine doesn't need to work as hard to get the total mass moving. As such, if the lighter riders are already satisfied with stock acceleration, the only area of improvement would be more top speed. I could see how that general rule of thumb applies.

However, as my research findings show, with the polini variator using the same weights as the stock variator (5g) the overall climbing revs AND vmax revs dropped by almost 1000RPM. (at the same time it also holds the RPM range much narrower as JamesDean has found, which is super good for tuning)

Since nothing else was changed in this experiment, this tells me that the polini variator is designed to be gear taller than the stock variator. From other reviews, I would therefore assume the KN variator is geared shorter overall than the stock variator.

The ideal variator in my opinion would maximize acceleration while maintaining or improving top speed. In this case, however, the polini lost acceleration (compared to stock) while improving top speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Clutch burning up! PG15 (GY180cc on PG12)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:55 pm 


It has been a while. I've given up most of my time attending track days on the 1098S but I can tell the Ruck is getting super jealous and issues are arising that needs to be attended to. So far, my upgrades include HO Cam, K&N Intake, Metropolitan intake snorkel, 78 Main jet, 06 carb needle with shim, shortened carb spring, Polini variator, 5G slider weights, Custom lightened flywheel NCY CDI, ventilated CVT cover, and Blue clutch spring.

The higher horsepower combined with the higher launch and accelerating RPMs have really taken its toll on the stock clutch, as observed earlier. During hotter days in stop & go traffic, the clutch would overheat and I would lose all power to the ground. The engine RPM would shoot sky high but the bike would barely move. This gets super annoying as I would have to pull over and let the clutch cool down before the bike will move again. Although I have plans to upgrade to the Dr. P clutch, I would like to see what sort of improvements I could make to the stock clutch before throwing it in the garbage bin, especially since I have plans to raise the accelerating RPM even higher with lighter weights (~9000K).

I plan to modify the clutch in two phases. First I will remove the outer housing and sandblast the contact surface. I will ride it for 400km to study the effects of the modification. At a later stage I will lathe the clutch to further reduce weight and add cooling "fins" to increase surface area and allow heat to dissipate faster.

Image
Image

Up till now, I have completed part 1 of the modification and put 240km on the bike. I am extremely pleased with the results so far. As you can see, removing the outer bell reduced the clutch housing by almost 100g. The effects of a lighter clutch housing combined with a sandblasted mating surface has really brought the bike to a whole new level. Not only did it remedy the effects of overheating, I think it improved the performance of the stock clutch somewhat. The bike is now significantly more aggressive while launching from standstill. It is almost as if my ruckus has inherited the characteristics of my 2-stroke piaggio scooter. At the same time, I don't lose as much rev once the clutch bites and I begin accelerating. While the acceleration times aren't massively different, on average my 0-20mph has improved 0.1-0.2 seconds (compared with my old clutch, assuming that it is operating normally.) The best part, however, is the look on my gf's face after taking my ruck out for a spin. She now describes the ruck in normal person term as being "mean" and no longer fun to ride lol. 240km so far and I have not experienced any clutch burning/slipping that I used to observe with the old setup.

With every modification, however, there's got to be a sacrifice. The downside of making my modification to the clutch housing is primarily noise in my opinion. With the CVT cover, the difference is not noticeable. However, with it off and while the tranmission is under load (ie. riding). I can hear clutch squeal once in a while sort of like the dry clutch on my Ducati. While I in fact find the noise rewarding, some might find it irritating. Using my GF again as a "normal person" benchmark, she couldn't tell a difference in sound. Maybe she's too distracted how different the bike feels but I will have to let her ride it more to have a better report.

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET and GY6 (Pg 15 Modding the Polini Variator)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:44 pm 
Reporting back: 600km on the bike so far with the lightened clutch. The clutch is still shiny and not a single sign of rust or overheating. So far so good.

I haven't had time with the lathe for part 2 of the stock clutch modification but recently, I had a new idea on how to gear the bike lower for better acceleration using GY6 parts. More on that later. However, while doing some research, I was sidetracked by a post written by a reputable member here: ConElite. In a few of his posts, he mentioned that he shaves off the rubber seal on all of his Polini variators. This was very interesting as he seems to have one of the fastest rucks on this forum. However, the results of this modification was not well documented. Probably because either the effects weren't significant or the modification was made along with other mods. As the result, the effects remains unknown.



Curious as to what the modification would do, I decided to cut off the rubber seal on my Polini Variator. The result was definitely small but worthy improvement. However, I would totally do it again given the choice considering even the OEM variator did not have a rubber seal. Idling RPMs remained the same, and top speed improved at most, on average maybe 0.1~0.2mph. I would associate this "improvement" strictly as GPS error because I honestly did not feel I was going a lot faster at vmax. The improvement most noticeable, however, is the accelerating revs. I would associate cutting off the rubber seal similar to the improvements found decreasing your slider weights by 0.2~0.3g. My accelerating RPM's increased across the board by 100-300RPMs on average. 0-30mph times were improved by a repeatable ~0.1 second.

In conclusion, cutting the rubber seal will not make a significant difference. It is entirely up to you whether or not you want to squeeze out that last bit of performance from your Polini variator. Some people might be concerned about belt dust getting into the roller ramps, but I really don't think that's what the seal was designed for. I looked all over the internet and there was never a mention of a rubber seal on a variator used for that purpose. In fact, I would find it more believable that the seal was made for a different bike as, one source here suggested. Hope that helps!

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Last edited by Jasper on Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:33 am 
Great info!

Tossed a polinin on this summer too. It helped my top end a fair bit. Outside Temps seem to be holding me back. Still have to play with my wieghts a bit. You're a few mph faster than I am. What kind of distance does it take you to hit 50mph? (1km, 2km?)
I too have read about removing the seal in the polini. Havent done it yet.
Interested in hearing your ideas of using GY parts on a GET?

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:05 am 
Andy yes the polini sure adds some extra mph! I've been following your thread too so it really helps me benchmark the ruckus's performance given similar altitude, temperature and O2 concentration. For the life of me, however, I am still trying to figure out how you're using 38/80 jet combo while I'm using a 35/78 jet combo and we arrive at nearly the same top speed (therefore similar power figures). I would really like to further open up the intake and take advantage of that 80MJ like you to make a bit more power.

Earlier when I was analyzing the polini compared to the stock variator, you could see the roller ramps are in fact longer than the stock ones. That is, given that both variators are nearly the same diameter, the edge on the outside perimeter of the polini variator is thinner, thereby extending the length of the roller ramps, and therefore allowing the roller/slider weights to travel further away from the center. This pushes the belt out further, assuming you have the necessary power and therefore more top speed (at a lower rpm).

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Last edited by Jasper on Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:40 pm 
I'll gladly take the bell off your hands.
:highfive:

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:53 pm 
ahh Jedi. Good to see you're still on the forum. I'll have to keep one of the clutch bells for backup...at least for now. The stage 2 modifications I have planned for it will be a lot more aggressive. There is a chance it will get destroyed either by the lathe or the bike because I'm aiming for final target weight of sub ~200g/50% weight reduction and 25% increase in surface area. High hopes but I'm skeptical. We'll see how that goes...

If you want, however, I can do the modification for you for free lol (assuming you haven't done it already). Take it as payment for the wealth of knowledge you provided. Is ARunto and SanJuro and Robomod still on here?

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:38 pm 
Have you tried sliders in that Polini yet? I was amazed at how much more top end I got, and revs dropped by 800-1000. This was with 5.5s, I've since moved down to 5's, and will be getting some 4.5's soon.

The Polini LOVES sliders.

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:29 pm 
If you come across another bell let me know. I'll pay for the shipping /service/part.

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 Post subject: Re: Jasper's GET/GY6: Modding the Polini Variator
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:31 pm 
so are you using the stock bushing with the Polini variator?

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