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Needs Training Wheels
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 Post subject: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:38 am 
Hello everyone. Allow me to start out by apologizing for this post - I'm sure you lot are inundated with people whose first posts are troubled Ruckus owners trying to get help. That's gotta be annoying after a while. However, I need help and this seems by far the best place to ask.

Anyway, I've got a troubled Ruckus (duh). As history can matter in these situations, I'll give a quick run-down:
[*]It's a 2006 model with ~7700 miles on it
[*]It was purchased by my wife used about 7 years ago or so, already lightly modified (Kijima stretch, Polini variator, Airbox delete, Yoshimura exhaust)
[*]It was stolen and missing for about a year before finally being recovered. The thieves removed the Yoshi exhaust and replaced it with a stock exhaust, and swapped out all the locks. No keys were recovered. It also has a hot-wire switch rigged up.
[*]It then spent another year in storage in a warehouse 700 miles from me, uncovered and being shit on by birds.
[*]I finally received it about a week ago.

Since I knew it had been sitting, I hit it with the basics:
[*]Oil changed with 10w-30
[*]New spark plug
[*]Fresh 93 octane gas with a couple shots of Seafoam
[*]Two rounds of bird-shit scrubbing that still hasn't removed it all. All done by hand, no spraying of water.
[*]Checked the battery and cleaned the connections; it's all good.

I then went to start it and it would sputter a bit and then die. Hit it with some starting fluid and it fired up right away but would not idle. Opened up the carb and found the idle jet totally clogged. I cleaned both it and the main jet with some 28-gauge wire and a judicious amount of carb cleaner. Put everything back together and it ran great...

...for about an hour.

I'd taken it out for a shakedown cruise and aside from some dodgy rear brakes (needs shoes) it performed just fine if a bit slow. About 37-ish top speed on the flat, but I recon that's just variator tuning to be done. I stopped off at a cafe for a cup for about 30 minutes and then decided to head home. She started up immediately and seemed fine, but before I set off I had someone approach me and engage me in conversation (you know, the "Hey, is that a Ruckus?" type). As a result, I sat there at idle for 3-5 minutes.

When I finally set off for home, something was clearly not right. Giving it anything more than about 25% throttle generated more noise but no corresponding increase in speed. If anything, it was slowing the thing down. I limped it home at about 20mph. I figured some gunk had worked its way loose thanks to the Seafoam and clogged a jet again, so I took the carb off and opened her up. Sure enough, I found some sand-grain bits of varnish in the bottom of the bowl, but the jets were both clear.

Note: at this point I discovered the idle jet is a 38. No clue on the main, but this (as well as some badly rounded screws on the carb) was a big hint that it wasn't left stock by one of the previous owners.

Not finding an obvious fault, I further disassembled the carb. The diaphragm, float & needle valve, piston/slider and corresponding needle looked good; no tears or visible gunk anywhere. Sprayed out every passage I could find and put it back together. Found the TPS reset procedure in a Google search and did that as well. Put everything back together again and went on a ride. No effect.

Further Google searching led me to an article about shimming the needle with an M2.5 washer, so I thought "Hmm, maybe it's leaning out." I stopped by a hardware store and picked a few up, and took the carb apart again. Turns out the needle was already shimmed, so now I thought "Hmm, maybe it's going too rich." Took the shim out and put everything back together again. No effect.

More Googling. Found a few more ideas, but nothing that seems to fit my situation:

Intake air leak: Ok...but from what? Here's my intake:
Image
The "snorkel" is in good condition, as is the boot connecting the carb to the inlet manifold. The hose on the lower left of the engine has been capped, and everything else is venting to atmosphere. Also, this problem appeared suddenly, not gradually. Doesn't seem to fit.

Bad fuel pump/fuel filter: Well, the bike has never stalled during any of this, the bowl was always chock-full of gasoline when I would take the carb off, and there's no noise coming from the fuel pump. I think fuel starvation is unlikely.

Slipping variator belt: Ok, I know it's subjective, but it just feels more engine-related to me. It also does this on the stand, when there's no resistance on the driven wheel. Here's (an admittedly shite) video:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/vI_sUCDVWu0[/youtube]

Carb jetting is off
: Yes, the go-to answer to any "my ruck isn't running properly" post. This makes the least sense to me of all the potential options, as it had been running perfectly for about an hour and then suddenly wasn't. I do have reason to believe a larger-than-stock main jet was installed in the past (known history of aftermarket exhaust, intake mod, idle jet is larger, needle was shimmed) but even so, I can't imagine this being the cause - because, as I sad, it had been running perfectly fine for an hour and I can't imagine it's such a large jet that it's totally flooding the carb out. It feels more lean to me (again, totally subjective).

Bad ignition coil
: I guess? This doesn't seem right to me either - why would the quality of ignition be dependent on the throttle position?

So there we have it. I'm at a loss as to what's causing the problem, and I don't want to start ordering parts willy-nilly as the prices for Ruckus parts are a bit ridiculous for what they are (most are more expensive than the corresponding equal on my big bike). I need some guidance here. So, a few questions:

[*]What else can I test before ordering any parts? And how do I test those things?
[*]Is there something other than the jets that can become clogged and cause this problem? Have I overlooked something?
[*]Where do I go from here?

Mighty appreciation for any help you can give me. I'm getting pretty desperate...I had one glorious hour of ruck bliss before it all went to hell, and I've been gutted ever since the problem began. My shite mood is even driving my wife crazy, and I'm getting low on consolation beer.

EDIT: Not sure why the BBCode isn't parsing; sorry about that if I've done something wrong.


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Shot Caller
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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:00 pm 
My first thought is that it still has the bigger jets in there that you'd install when you yank the airbox, jet and shim the carb and put a yosh on. The fact that it has a shim means someones been in there. Since it has the stock exhaust (back) on it, you might want to check that. If it's like an 85 or something, it could be too big for that exhaust. That'd cause it to bog. Try a smaller main jet. Your pilot 38 jet sounds like bigger than stock too. (I don't remember the stock GET sizes, but 38 pilot and an 85 main is a typical Yosh config)

I bet ya it's goofed up because the carb is set up for that yosh.

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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:36 pm 
Stock jets are 35/75 I believe and normally a 38 small jet is fine for an air box eliminate. I'm kinda wondering if your carb is good to go after cleaning, but there maybe another issue. Did you notice if the temp light came on? I wonder if you hit limp mode from overheating? Since the carb has been opened up where are those coolant lines that run through carb? Are they reattached or barbed together? Either should be fine but who knows if someone just capped them. Another thought, if a hotwire switch was installed you may have something electrical that vibrated loose and now giving you crap. I hate to add more things to look at but I would go over the wire harness and check coolant in the overflow as will as in radiator. Good luck and keep us up to date.

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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:15 pm 
Prime wrote:
Did you notice if the temp light came on?

It hasn't.

Quote:
I wonder if you hit limp mode from overheating?

Coolant flow seems good and as I'd mentioned, the light hasn't come on. Granted I don't know much about these things, but I don't see any indication of anything that would either cause limp mode or be indicative of it being in limp mode.

Quote:
Since the carb has been opened up where are those coolant lines that run through carb? Are they reattached or barbed together?

They are in their stock locations.

Quote:
Another thought, if a hotwire switch was installed you may have something electrical that vibrated loose and now giving you crap.

The switch isn't wired in such a way that would modify or damage the harness in any way. It's done with spade-like connectors inserted into the ignition switch plug that normally attaches to the ignition lock.

Quote:
I hate to add more things to look at but I would go over the wire harness and check coolant in the overflow as will as in radiator. Good luck and keep us up to date.

I've done a cursory check of the electrics but certainly nothing in-depth; I'll give it a closer look as soon as I get the chance. I don't think cooling is the issue; everything appears to check out there.


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Rusty Trombonner
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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:19 pm 
Start it up and burp the radiator. Its hard to explain limp mode. But if that's it head gasket could be gone. But I'd be double sure it's not a jet. Intake leaks usually make it hard to start.

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Needs Training Wheels
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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:22 pm 
Whoops, sorry I missed this one.
lilpinny wrote:
My first thought is that it still has the bigger jets in there that you'd install when you yank the airbox, jet and shim the carb and put a yosh on. The fact that it has a shim means someones been in there. Since it has the stock exhaust (back) on it, you might want to check that. If it's like an 85 or something, it could be too big for that exhaust. That'd cause it to bog. Try a smaller main jet. Your pilot 38 jet sounds like bigger than stock too. (I don't remember the stock GET sizes, but 38 pilot and an 85 main is a typical Yosh config)

I bet ya it's goofed up because the carb is set up for that yosh.

I would agree with you if it had been doing this consistently since I got the ruck back. Since it hasn't (it's a suddenly-developed problem), that leaves me skeptical.

I suppose one possibility is that since I only cleaned the jets initially, there was some other gunk in the carb that restricted flow just the right amount to have it run perfectly. This gunk was then loosened and blown out into the bowl (the "sand-grains" of varnish I found in there on the second go-round with the carb), which then opened up the fuel flow and now it's running super-rich. It seems like a pretty slim theory to me, but I suppose it's possible.

As I want to open up the carb again to replace all the rounded-out phillips head screws left by the morons before me, it wouldn't hurt to rejet it anyway (assuming a jet kit isn't too expensive). I just have my doubts is all.


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:05 pm 
pics of wife? :meh:

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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:13 am 
Jedi wrote:
pics of wife? :meh:

She said "post that one of me on my car," so here ya go:
Image
She also says if you lot help me get the Ruck running like a top, she'll take a pic on it for you guys.

Given your input, I've ordered the following so far:

Main jets #75, #78, #80 (give me some tuning wiggle room)
Idle Jet #38 (just in case there's an issue with the one already in there)
Replacement carb bowl screws (allen-headed this time, so no more rounding)
Lock set and keys (need this regardless...these things are easy enough to steal without making it even easier)

I'll keep you up to date once they get here. Hopefully Jets R Us ships quickly; I've not dealt with them before.


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:37 pm 
It's your main jet. It's too big. I know, it just started...blah blah blah. It ran fine with the better exhaust, but you've gone back to stock and now the airflow is restricted and it's getting too much fuel. Go back to a 75 or 78. make sure you can see light through the small jet.

And stop putting 93 octane gas in your scooter. These things aren't like your car. Follow Honda's recommendations and stick to 85/87 (lowest that's available in your area).


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:43 pm 
wazzu_coug wrote:
It's your main jet. It's too big. I know, it just started...blah blah blah. It ran fine with the better exhaust, but you've gone back to stock and now the airflow is restricted and it's getting too much fuel. Go back to a 75 or 78. make sure you can see light through the small jet.

Jets have already shipped (good marks for Jets R Us there), so we'll see how it goes in the next couple days.

Quote:
And stop putting 93 octane gas in your scooter. These things aren't like your car. Follow Honda's recommendations and stick to 85/87 (lowest that's available in your area).

My reasoning was because of the high compression engine, but I guess that was incorrect. I'll save myself the $0.20 in the future. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:19 pm 
A gas tech explained to me one time that octane is only one of the units of measure they use and it doesn't tell you everything about a fuel. Those dudes can lecture for days. The higher the octane doesn't mean better performance or better gas. Some 103 octane racing gas can generate more power than a 110 octane just because it has different chemicals in it. But on a 50cc engine it won't make that much difference with pump gas.

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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:58 pm 
lilpinny wrote:
A gas tech explained to me one time that octane is only one of the units of measure they use and it doesn't tell you everything about a fuel. Those dudes can lecture for days. The higher the octane doesn't mean better performance or better gas. Some 103 octane racing gas can generate more power than a 110 octane just because it has different chemicals in it. But on a 50cc engine it won't make that much difference with pump gas.

See, my understanding is that octane is a detonation preventative, and has nothing to do with power or quality. The GET being near-as-makes-no-difference a 12:1 compression ratio rationalized the higher octane rating (for example, my Civic SI had a compression ratio of 11:1 which necessitated 91+ octane fuel). Additionally, when you're only buying 3/4 of a gallon at a time, the added cost is pretty irrelevant.

My thought was that it couldn't do any harm to the Ruck, so if it's beneficial that's great, but if not I'm not really out anything other than the extra $0.20.


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:47 am 
I understand where it makes sense. But if it's not running properly, stop going against what Honda says.

From a car site: "A few things. For one, you will be wasting money paying for high octane gasoline. Second, your car will not run correctly, whether you notice it or not. Higher octane fuel requires more heat and more precision to burn correctly. If your car is designed to burn 87, it will not burn 93 correctly. Third, your gas mileage will suffer. The inability of your engine to burn the higher octane gas correctly will cause your engine to produce less power and thus will require more fuel to perform at the same level."


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:25 pm 
Update time!

Got my new jets and lock set in today. Installed a new 38 idle jet and a 75 main jet (the stock size). Took a closer look at the jet that was in there and found a size marking; it was an 85.

Put everything back together and took it for a test spin around the block...aaaaand it's the same problem.

:headbashing:

It does seem to have a bit more get-up-and-go at 1/4 throttle than it did, but anything more than that and it's bog central. Immediate power loss and decrease in speed, and it sort of "stutters" (brief fraction-of-a-second bits of power, but few and far between).

So...where do I go from here?


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 Post subject: Re: Bogging under throttle, won't go over 20ish.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:32 pm 
Try tuning the air screw. That might have been tweaked as well. That stock exhaust mught not like the air box pulled off either. Could be too much air for it to push out.

I mean, to me, it sounds like the air/fuel mix is goofed up. It works at idle but with gas and it moving to the main jet it's sputters. It's getting too much of something or not enough of something... and perhaps it's not getting it out through the exhaust fast enough.

Don't know if this would prove anything, but what's it do if you pull of the exhaust? I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

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