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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:57 pm 
This may be a first.....
a new J.Costa variator driving a new DR Pulley HiT clutch on a Big Ruckus.......

smooth!!


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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:56 pm 
Ok, ruckers, here are the results of the very first runs of the Costa variator driving a HiT clutch....
actually I had to discard the first 2 runs because the Costa spun up so fast, the HiT slipped at take off and the revs shot so high it hit the rev limiter.
At first I thought I had broken the drive belt but soon realized what had happened....
like the HiT clutch, the new Costa needed a few miles to wear in a bit.
The pins were so slow in coming out, the engine over-revved to 8500 and started sputtering and missing!
After that happened TWICE I took about a 5 mile ride with lots of variation in speeds to warm eveything up and then tried it again.

I also began using a very controlled roll-on to try to prevent it from over-revving.....
you can see this in some of the runs at the engagment point where revs are slowly ramping up instead of just slamming the throttle open.
None of these new components have had a chance to wear in properly yet.

With the Keihin CV (or VE) type carb, a controlled roll-on will always give better take-off than just whacking the throttle wide open, but in testing the bike with the Veypor, I usually just whack the throttle open, since it gives more consistent results run to run.

A carefully controlled roll-on would probably trim .5-1.0 seconds off any run, but it's harder to do it the same way every time....
just whacking the throttle wide open uniformly cripples every run by the same amount. :wasted:

This is the first results:

Image

Since the new variator still needs some miles before it will settle into a reliable rpm curve, the only thing I compared it to was the OEM stock BR configuration, just as it comes from the dealership show room.

The most interesting thing about the two setups is the HiT engages the clutch at about the same rpm as the OEM variator starts to upshift! :lol:

Image

The WORST run on the new Costa was 68mph in the 1/4 mile.

The BEST run was 73mph in the 1/4.
Most runs were >70mph.

The best 0-60 time was 9.6 seconds.
the best 0-70 time was 14.8 seconds.
The best 1/4 mile time was 17.3 seconds.

this is very close to #2's best runs....

Remember this is with rejetted carb (42S, 102M) sucking air in though a stock air filter and pushing exhaust out through a stock muffler.
The Costa probably needs about 25 miles of use to smooth up and wear in where it will give consistent results.
I intend to put about 25 miles on the new setup and try it again tomorrow.

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:17 pm 
The K&N arrived today....


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Which allowed me to do this! :wasted:

Image


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I did ask Bob first! :)

This will give the Costa variator/ HiT clitch combination every possible advantage.

This will probably be the final configuration of this scoot for the summer.


Bob has tried to order just about every performance muffler combination that 31 Performance of Japan makes.....
carbon fiber, titantium, stainless versions of the Jekill including the stealthy Sports versions and they always come up "Sold Out".
I think it's due to the fact that peak riding season is upon us and the performance parts are in peak demand.
I'm having the same problem finding the specific carb we wanted to use from a '98 Foresight or Piaggio X-9.
I have a 2004 Foresight carburetor in hand that I bought and it is as far beyond the Reflex carb as the Reflex carb is beyond the Big Ruckus carb.
Bigger main jets and an open airbox....the air box inlet is about the same sq.in. as the air filter opening, but it's NOT the one we wanted.

We decided to hold out until we can get the specific parts we want rather than accepting next best.
Bob also gets his scoot back to ride this summer and evaluate the mods up to this point.

We think we may have a better chance of finding what we want in the fall...when sales go flat.
I knew this was a possibility when we started this project so late in the spring.

Anyway, I plan to use the hotter Foresight carb I have on #2....
it looks like it should be much easier to tune, since it's already set up to use more air, unlike the BR carb.


After I install the K&N on Bob's scoot, I'll get some good runs of the scoot using the punched pipe and the high flow filter.
I may have to put the 45S back in?




While waiting for the K&N to arrive, I tested some odd combinations and I compared the J.Costa to one of my favorite slider/roller combinations.....
3 x19g sliders + 3 x 15g rollers.

I like to think of this combination as a Poor Man's J.Costa.


REVs

Image


If you look at these graphs, you'll see why.....this combination of sliders and rollers most perfectly mimics the J.Costa's acceleration curve.
And it almost matches the Costa's rpm curve....same upshift point around 6500revs and similar rev curve.

SPEED

Image


Even the older runs with the stock clutch shows the same curve, just 1 second later becuase of the HiT's fast engagement.
The big difference is the Costa will upshift one more time at about 73, dropping revs when it does.


Image

Relative stats for the 4 configurations.

No, it's not a real Costa, but it sure "feels" like one, all the way out to it's topend around 73mph.



Also, for the extreme light weight enthusiasts, a collection of ~90gram ROLLERS tested with the HiT clutch.....
84 gram (6x14g R) 90 gram (6x15g R) 93g (3x31g R or K-Mod) all compared to the OEM 156gram (6x26g R)

90Gram REVs

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All of the 90g class of weights (including the 93g K-Mod) rev well into the 7000 rpm range before upshifting....
this is ~500rpm higher than I'm seeing with the Costa/HiT combination.

Speed

Image


The K-Mod w 3 rollers doesn't apply weight to the thrust plate as well when upshifting, meaning it's later in closing the pulley....
as you can see 6x15g rollers gave better performance than 3 x31g.
Where the K-Mod loses out is in the first few seconds....
6 weights in the variator take the slack out of the belt better and gets "the leap" in the first 2 seconds, where they gain about 6-8mph in < a half second.

In the Reflex's dual tracked variator, the results would have been different....I have no doubt it would greatly improve a Reflex time over stock.

But to maximize it's unique variator, a Reflex needs to scale both sets of weight by about the same percentage to get balanced performance.
Maybe 3x21g in the long tracks with 3x15g in the short tracks...that's where I'd start anyway!

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:23 pm 
Here are the results of 8 consecutive runs with the full combination of mods......
HiT clutch
Costa variator
rejetted carb @ 42S, 102M
K&N filter
5/8" punched out muffler (eh, don't ask, but this procedure took all of 5 seconds!)

RPM

Image

Several have been confused by the fact that I display so many runs when comparing mods.....
I always try to use at least 3 or 4 runs showing the current mod I'm working on.....
this ensures I'm looking at an accurate average representation of the data and not "cherry picking" results.
If it won't do it twice in a row, it's not worth considering...
so, always several similar runs to keep your self honest with your self? :ucrazy:

1/4 Finish Times

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All 8 runs topped 68mph and 5 of the runs topped 70mph.
the K&N filter and open pipe helped the rejetted carb a lot.....
you can feel it pull harder at topend.

I'll need to readjust the carb's pilot circuit for the new air filter.....
it lowered the revs by about 100rpm immediately when I recranked the warm engine.

Also notice that as the HiT has accumulated miles, you can see a slight rpm drop at engagement.....
this just means its almost worn in....the pads slip less, grip faster and there is some rpm loss.
But, losing 300-400 rpms at 5500 rpm is hardly noticeable when compared to losing 300-400 revs at 2800 rpm.

The bike with this configuration is a joy to ride.....
The HiT clutch makes pulling out effortless and in spite of the higher engagement rpms, the HiT stays locked in through corners
and even while decelerating by engine braking.....only a touch to the rear brake will cause the clutch to drop out sooner.

With the Costa and light weight slider /roller combinations, the throttle acts more like a speed controller, speeding or slowing the bike by just twisting it up or down the range....the gearing tracks the road speed perfectly and the scoot always feels like it's in the right gear to reaccelerate.

This setup "feels" the way every scooter should feel...power in reserve and running understressed.

!/4 Mile Speed

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It will easily accelerate from 50-65mph while climbing a grade.

Some stats for this setup....very nice!

Run Stats

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I've been comparing before and after runs and have come to see that the HiT clutch affects more than just the first few seconds.....
by engaging late at higher revs and spinning up so much faster, it lowers the upshift rpms for every combination I've tested and usually with beneficial results.
It actually changes the shape of their rpm curve.....perhaps they are slipping in some way?
Or maybe it just that the engine is now running in the right powerband to do the heavy lifting of getting the mass into motion?
I suspect it's the second!

It's convinced me both by "feel" while riding and by crunching the Veypor data to the point that I've ordered a HiT for myself. :banger:

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:13 pm 
While I remember....
a neat tool by MotionPro and probably others......


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and you use it like this!


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well, sort of....
two flat points on one side and two round pins on the other.....
all mounted on a Vice Grip!
Ingenius! Someone here probably already knows about them but I still think it's cool!
It works for removing the clutch bell on a BR, without using an impact driver....
as long as you have three hands!

but I hate the big bandstrap hoopy plumbers type tool Honda reccommends so, this will do in a pinch?
if not, there's always an impact driver on stand-by!

About $20-30 bucks and available almost everywhere and apparently forever.....
who knew?

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:08 am 
Another set of comparison Before/After graphs.......
at the top is the final configuration of the Costa variator w/HiT clutch.

Image

But this is what I wanted to point out.......
At the bottom of the graph is two all roller setups compared using both the stock clutch and the HiT clutch......
using 6x21g (126gram total) and 6x26gram (156gram total) you can see the effect I mentioned earlier.


When using the HiT, the graph for a given roller setup has the same basic shape, but it gets scaled down and is flatter.....?
the CVT reaches upshift at lower revs and everything just seems to happen faster.

Image



What this means is that you can extend the range of usable weights into the heavier end of the scale....when using the HiT clutch.


And it seems we're not quite through with this scoot just yet........
testing the DR Pulley HiT clutch convinced me to try the DR Pulley over-range variator.

This variator is designed specifically to work with DR Pulley sliding rollers and unlike the Costa, it comes with BOTH pulley faces. :banger:

Image


Originally I was going to test it on #2 (and this IS where it's going!) but since Bob's CVT is still open and we have a ton of comparitive data on his scoot already,
I decided to install the new DR Pulley variator on his scoot first and make a few runs.

A couple of interesting features.....the Dr Pulley variator has very steep tracks.
It also has an adjustable boss with 3 spacers.....YOU get to pick your own gearing range!

Image

Adding or removing a spacer changes the pulley width, thus gear range.
Add a spacer to the boss to gear it down for the mountains, or remove a spacer to gear it up for the flat lands.


In case you haven't noticed, I like tunable components. :lol:
One size fits all rarely does in real life.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:41 pm 
:popcorn:

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:51 am 
First impressions of the DR Pulley variator.......

first, it's hefty.
I'm pretty sure it weighs more than the OEM variator....I will weigh both to confirm this.

second, it has functional cooling fins cast into the variator moving face housing....
these look to be very substantial and will definitely move more air.


Image


the DRP variator has two matching pulley faces....
this is great, after dealing with several issues in the past caused by the Costa using the mis-matched OEM fixed face.


the next thing I noticed is there is a hole through the side of the boss....
I'm not sure of the purpose but when I picked it up to check it out, I noticed the next feature....

the boss is splined!

Image


When I saw this my first reaction was...."Oh, shit!" :shock:

I thought "there's no way that will work on a BR", since our boss is NOT splined.

What followed was very educational........
after removing the J.Costa variator, I discovered the Dr Pulley boss slid up the shaft, I jiggled it a bit and the splines matched the crankshaft splines perfectly!

The DR Pulley boss locks solidly to the crankshaft.

A few quick measurements......
it is .001" thinner than the OEM boss and is .010" shorter then the OEM boss.
for all intents and purposes, the two are interchangeable between the DRP variator and the OEM variator.

When I first assembled it, I used one .010" spacer to get it close to the OEM length.
With a belt with about 6600 miles, this setting seemed loose with too much belt slap at idle, so I removed the spacer and the belt seemed about right.

one downside.......
the fixed pulley face has no holes for a variator tool.....
it only has cooling fins.


Image


In my case, I used the impact driver to torque it to 70ft.lbs. but this could be a problem for those who use a torque wrench.
I doubt the cooling fins could withstand that much torque, so some alternative method of holding the variator while torqueing the nut may be required.

I installed 3x24g and 3x16g sliders and took a short ride to wear it in.

acceleration was smooth, the upshift was very strong and the gear range was tight.....
I can best describe it as going from low gear to high gear in about half the time of the OEM variator.
I'll need to try this again with lighter weights.

The 4 runs I graphed had not settled in enough to give a uniform repeatable curve, so I'll get some better data for it today.

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CANADIUS MAXIMUS
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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:09 am 
:banger:

More info please....lol

I want one!

:canuck:

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:43 am 
I'll have full test data on the DR Pulley variator in the next few days......
right now, I had to delay testing variators while we finish final testing of students for the end of the school year.

After Wednesday, School's Out For Summer!!!


until then...............

A couple of additional observations on the DR Pulley variator.....
the pulley diameters is at least 1/4" smaller on the DR Pulley variator, but when running heavy weights @WOT, the belt runs about 1/4" ABOVE the pulley rim.
It still has generous clearance with the CVT housing and doesn't touch anything but it looks kind of scary running with 1/2 the belt above the pulley.

Remember these were developed originally for the Helix CN250 (as was the HiT clutch).
The pulley face angle is steeper, making it very wide at the top and the gear range is tight....it upshifts super quick, in half the distance of the OEM variator.
It looks like it can be tuned for extremely fast 0-65mph performance, but I don't think anyone will top 80mph with this variator....
I could be surprised, but it just doesn't look like it has the upper range to do this.

I've reached 66/68mph in the 1/4 mile using it with heavy weights...
it pulls hardest in the mid-range where the OEM variator is weakest.

It looks like it could be a perfect mountain scooter variator and the splined boss with spacers can be used with the OEM variator for more tuning options.
I know several of us have already trimmed a spare Honda boss by .005" or .010" to allow compensation for belt wear and tuning the gear range....
this system is designed to do this easily with shims and to also allow YOU to set the starting gear range.

By shimming the boss to set the pulleys more open, you can gear your BR down to pull like a jeep with one of these, if you choose.

more run info in a few days..........

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:19 am 
No times for runs over the last few days but I wanted to post a few very odd graphs.
I opened a couple of the best runs from the HiT/Costa combination.....
then flipping back through previous runs of different combinations, I opened the fastest of each.
It's easy to do, just sort them by size...since the Veypor writes a fixed amount of data per second, the smallest file is the fastest run...usually.

What surprised me was an odd pattern emerged in about 80% of the runs....

Image


The speeds were all fairly good runs, between 65 - 70 mph in the 1/4 mile.


Image


But what struck me as odd was the two points of convergence in the rpm graphs....
at about 1-2 seconds into the run, all the different configurations are with 200rpm of each other.....
what's really strange is that at about 18 seconds, all the runs are within 200rpm of each other!

Image

not all runs show this "convergence", but those above the line will be over 70mph and those below the line will be under 60mph.

This is some innate limitation of the design....
the variator gearing, the clutch gearing, your belt width, the final drive gearing ....
all in their upper operating range come together optimally @7250rpm at about 17 seconds.
thats in a GOOD run..you might say in the best of runs.

The great thing about stumbling onto this is it gives us a tangible goal.....
a fixed numerical rpm value to shoot for with our weight combinations.

Image


so we know the upshift rpm range is ~5800 rpm for weights heavier than 126 grams
we know that it's ~ 6800 for the Costa and the 102g slider/roller combo
That give us a beginning range of 6000-6800 rpm @ about 3 seconds and a downrange target of 7250rpm at 17-18 seconds.

now we only need to find the perfect weight range and combnation that will draw the straightest line between those two points on the graph!



on the graph above notice the really ugly line??
that was my first DRP slider test from several years ago.....
I installed them the WRONG way and I hit the rev limiter on every run!
The results were still fast but if you look closely you can see that as the spark passed 8500, it suddently drops to 4250.....
that's how the rev limiter works....when reached it cuts off every other spark cycle.
if you approach it slowly, at cruise speed, you'll never even notice it.....you just feel the bike is out of power and that's all there is.
It doesn't really slow down....it just won't go any faster.

It's different if you hit it under hard acceleration......
then you will hear it sputter and fell it miss and sometimes even back fire from a missed spark cycle.



one last set of pics from the Droid!
while getting my scoots ready to ride to the OBX for CCoN 6, I was checking the belt on #2...
right after swapping out the costa for the modified OEM variator, I noticed belt chatter when pulling out.
This usually means the belt is slipping a bit.

I've been running #2 without the noise shield...plastic and foam...that covers the CVT.
It lets the CVT dump heat better and makes a cooler place for the belt....
this belt now has over 16000 miles and it's finally worn past the spec limits...it was 22.2mm.
It has run on a Costa variator that entire length of time and it has a wierd lopsided V shape....not symmetrical.

but what I want to point out is how to check your belt state of health, not just it's width....
turn a short length of it inside out.


Image


if the rubber is drying out and aging, it will show up HERE first....
some would say..... but flexing the belt backwards might make the rubber crack?

nope!
if it can crack from being reverse flexed, you want a new one!


Image

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:46 am 
A quick note on the new Bando belt....
I had several new belts (including 2 that fit but not perfect) and I decided to use the new Bando belt I got online when they first became available.
The last OEM belt lasted 16000 miles on #2 running a Costa variator and Delta clutch, but during that entire time, I've left the CVT cover off the housing.
I just painted the aluminum CVT cover and left the foam lined plastic heat/noise guard off.....
there's no doubt this extends the belt life since the CVT and final drive run about 20-30 degrees cooler with it off.

This is the first belt I actually wore out in continuous running.....before this, I always replaced the belt between 9000-10000 miles to be sure I was
under the 11,000 miles limit, since many BR users reported the belt failing between 10000 and 12000 miles.
I have gotten ~7000 miles out of one of those 10000 mile takeoffs on BioHazard in the last year.
Both scoots now have the plastic heat shield removed...it's noisier, but belts are expensive!

anyway, when I tore open the bag, I noticed the belt looked different....
more finished and refined than the rough looking OEM belts.
It definitely has a different rubber composition than the OEM belt.

I double checked the number on the belt and it definitely says "23100-KTB-0030" so I put it back together.

While I had it apart I blew out the Delta clutch/contra mechanism and installed the OEM variator with 108g weight.
The belt fit was perfect and I had to drag slack into the clutch pulley several times to walk the belt out enough that I could torque the fixed face properly.

so all is cool and I go for the first ride.....
I take it easy for the first 6-8 miles going gently up to 55 until I get to the Highway....
I roll onto the ramp and romp down on the throttle and there's a rubbery screech like sliding tires and then the bike surges forward....
this freaks me out and I pull to the side of the ramp (no traffic) and figure out what just happened.
The belt slipped BIG time for about 1/2 second! It shrieked like a banshee (I had the CVT cover competely off the scoot, so it was LOUD!!)
I killed the engine and check the belt (there's no cover remember) and everything looks great....
good tension, no belt slap at idle, riding low in the front and high in the rear.
everything is cool! so I try it again!! :ucrazy:

I twist the throttle open and again, the howl of shrieking rubber followed by the rear tire breaking traction, kicking up a nice spray of gravel and almost spinning out when it finally caught.

after that, for the rest of the 25 mile ride, I decided to take it easy and use the throttle like a sane person.
From a stop, even during a soft rollon, if I pushed it a bit, the belt would chirp.

Everyone who has ridden it all agree that #2 is a very torquey BR....
with a modified Reflex carb, a Beams exhaust, running light weight rollers and a Delta clutch, it can definitely load up a belt but......
this is the first time in my 65,000 miles on BRs that I've heard a belt howl like this one did...even a new belt.

I am reasonably certain that the pulley surfaces did not become contaminated with oil or grease while I blew it out.
Van said he has had scooter pulley belts that squealed until they wore a bit so I intend to give this one a gentle (and brief!!) break-in.
but so far......I am not impressed. I do, however, remain cautiously optimistic. :dubious:

This belt will get a real workout before I trust it on a roadtrip.

I'd like to hear from others who are using these aftermarket Bando belts....
did your's slip or squawl when you first installed them?

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Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:40 pm 
for those wondering, the new Bando belt finally wore in to the point it no longer howls during hard acceleration......
but, it took about 50 miles of mild gentle take offs before it reached that stage.


So far, So Good! :dubious:


I took a short break from testing Bob's scoot to make sure mine were in good shape and roadworthy before 6/20....
it's never a good idea to wait to the last minute and anything "new" or modded should be tested at least a week in advance.
#2 is a different bike.....new rubber, new belt, new variator setup.
As usual, a new belt geared it up taller.

geez, I miss the Costa!

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Needs Training Wheels
Needs Training Wheels

Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 12
Location: Aiea , Oahu , Hawaii
Gender: Dude

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:40 pm 
so did you ever replace or put bigger jets in the carb ... i have a modded exhaust on my bike cn 250 and i need to give it more fuel so i was going to space the vacuum piston needle with a m 3 washer to allow more fuel and maybe a bigger main jet i don't know just wanted to see your input when you get the chance

thanks


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Needs Training Wheels
Needs Training Wheels
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Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 28
Gender: Dude

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 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:57 am 
Ed you sure like your data!!! I tried to follow as best I could but kept thinking this > :shock:
heres a question.. what are the part numbers of the hit clutch and the new pulley set?


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