Our motto says it all: "We would like to ride in zoomer which is not easily defeated by anyone."

Members Rides Members Rides   TR Ride of the Month TR ROTM   * Ride Utility   Scoot TV Scoot TV   Support TR buy a shirt! TR Store * Login * Register
* FAQ 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:29 am 
To replace jets, it usually easier to just loosen the carb and rotate the bottom towards the left side.
To do this, you have to remove the left side panel.
Then you'll want to drain the bowl....the drain is the standard screw in the bottom of the carb.
It usually a good idea to catch what comes out, just as check to see what's in there.
It's common to see a little water (from condensation) but any trash from the bowl may indicate the need for a more thorough cleaning.

The next step is to loosen the Philips screw in the clamp to air box connector....
this is on the inlet side of the carb.

The next Philips screw is on the intake manifold (carb mount) and it's harder to see...it's at the top of the mount.

Image


There are two screws in this clamp, but usually you can get by with just loosening the one closest to the engine.
The entire mount will rotate with the carb.

Once the carb has rotated about 45 degrees, you should be able to see all 4 carb bowl screws.

For the rear screws it helps if you have a tool like this.....

Image


Use caution when removing the bowl....the float mechanism will be dangling and should be supported while the bowl is slipped past it.

Now you have this....

Image

The pilot or slow jet is in a recessed well in the center of the carb.
The main jet is towards the rear and extends down into the bowl....
it is mounted in what Honda call the jet holder.

The jet holder consists of the needle jet at the top, held it place by the emulsion tube (jet holder) with the main jet screwed into the bottom.
The needle jet determines the range of main jets that can be used and the emulsion tube has tiny bleed holes that premixes air from the air jet into the fuel metered in by the main jet. The emulsion tube used on the BR will work with a main jet up to about 105 (that's 105/1000s of a mm). Even then, the BR will be running rich, unless you open up the airbox and drill the vacuum slide to get more lift from the reduced inlet manifold caused by unrestricting the air inlet.

With a Reflex carb, you can go much fatter, since it's airbox is already unrestricted and it uses different sized air jets.
To use a main jet larger than 105, you may have to use a larger needle jet and a different emulsion tube, like one from a Helix or an Elite that were stock jetted in 115-118 range.

Suffice it to say, for the BR stock carb, 102 is as far as you want to go.....
if you're going to go to the trouble of swapping emulsion tube and needle jets/needles, you really want to go to a Reflex carb.....
way less headaches.

For those who want to go beyond the 102 jet, there's more info than you ever wanted to know on advanced jetting in this thread .....

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42555&start=0

have a large bottle of aspirin (or a fifth of Scotch) on hand before you start reading...
it is mindnumbingly boring! :headbashing:

For most of us, at this point we can put the bowl back on.....snug the screws but don't tighten any of them until all 4 are started.
Once they're all tight, turn on the ignition and listen to the pump click, click, click as it refills the bowl.
Check to verify there are no leaks.

If you changed the slow jet, you should get your tach out and be ready to retune the pilot screw....
the jetting is richer now and the pilot will need a tweak.

If you set it by ear, it will probably be wrong, but now you're blowing enough extra fuel into the carb and running rich enough that the pilot screw setting has less effect and most people won't even notice if it's wrong.

Getting it right will definitely give it an edge for those who are a stickler for details....
when you're working with less than 19HP, all the little stuff adds up.

I don't know if this will work, but here's a video I made of how to change variator rollers....
it assumes the CVT cover is off.

If you can't figure out how to get the CVT cover off, you shouldn't attempt to remove the variator. :wasted:

Image

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Chicken & Waffles
Chicken & Waffles
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 2844
Location: Statesboro, Ga.
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:29 am 
Thanks Ed, this seems very simple. I may have to get my son to help me (do it for me). As I have never re-jetted. I am getting ready to switch to the K&N air filter and get new jets before Con.

_________________
Approach life's problems like a dog. If you can't eat it or play with it, pee on it and walk away.

CarolinaCoN 2017, June 7-11 Roanoke Rapids, NC #10
2012 Majesty

CarolinaCoN 2008-2016
WAN's farewell '08
2006 BR 38,500 miles 9/07-11/13 (R.I.P.)


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:29 pm 
Ok, I'm just twiddling my thumbs here waiting for it to dry up and warm up!

Since global warming has set in, the temps here have been in the 40s-50s all this month and it has rained for the last week at least once a day.
The roads are too wet to make acceleration runs and I'm waiting.

If anyone knows where the average annual temperature is 3 degrees above normal (whatever that is!), please tell me....
I'll move there.


Be forewarned.....
the Ice Age cometh!

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

One of Us
One of Us
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 573
Location: Harlingen, TX
Gender: Dude
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:08 am 
BRed wrote:
If anyone knows where the average annual temperature is 3 degrees above normal (whatever that is!), please tell me....
I'll move there.

I can't complain about deep South Texas!! :banger:
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimat ... h/USTX0578

_________________
250cc Ruckus build: viewtopic.php?f=96&t=33740
250cc Metro build: viewtopic.php?f=96&t=80363


Top
 Profile  
 

Needs Training Wheels
Needs Training Wheels
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 41
Location: Fargo, ND
Gender: Dude
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:44 am 
I'll offer that here in North Dakota we've had high 60's and 70's all week. We've also had at least a 10 mile an hour wind everyday as well so that might negate the warm weather.

_________________
---------
Do or do not, there is no try.


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:50 pm 
A local BR rider stopped by yesterday to have me check his carb....
his is still stock jetted and sometime over the course of the winter, on a cold sunny day, he decided to take a ride and when he cranked his scoot,
it didn't want to idle right so he took it by a local bike shop and they "fixed" it by cranking up the idle screw to get a smooth idle on a 35 degree day.

Now, with temps in the high 70s, when he rolls on throttle to pull out, the engine almost dies.....this is the legendary BR "bog".

I connected the tach and reset the idle and pilot circuit and he did a short test ride and said it was better than ever.

many times on TR I've mentioned how the pilot screw and idle screw adjustments are linked....
if you turn the idle screw (which is really a throttle stop) by more than 1/16th of a turn, you can cripple your scoot at roll-on.

Here's why:

Image

on the picture above you see the butterfly which is the primary fuel control for your Keihin VE carb.
on the intake port (engine) side of the carb you see the pilot port....it's the tiny hole at the bottom of the carb throat.
This is what keeps your scoot running when you crank it up and it idles.
The mixture reaching this idle or pilot port is controlled by the pilot jet and the pilot screw.

Remember your pilot jet on the BR's Keihin VE type carb has it's own emulsion tube and is premixing air into the fuel that supplies the pilot circuit at a fixed rate....
adjusting the pilot screw doesn't affect that mix.
Keihin has done all the math and the pilot emulsion tube is metering a proper A/F mix to the pilot circuit.


The thing is, the pilot circuit doesn't just supply the pilot port, it also supplies 3 or 4 or sometimes 5 other ports, all connected to the pilot circuit.

Image

You will see them called by many names....
by-pass ports, transfer ports or transition ports, but whatever you call them they only work properly when the butterfly completely isolates them from that
single little pilot port closer to the engine intake....at IDLE.

All of those tiny ports are receiving fuel from the pilot jet.

If everything about the idle screw adjustment is right, these ports are on the opposite side of the butterfly at idle and in that configuration, they act as air intake ports,
allowing a tiny amount of additonal air to flow into the pilot circuit and by-pass the butterfly.

The pilot screw is actually metering the fuel mix reaching the pilot port (that single little port closest to the intake valve) by controlling the ratio of air entering the by-pass
ports to fuel that has already been premixed with air by the pilot jet's emulsion tube.

As soon as you crack the throttle open and the butterfly moves over those 4 little ports, the fuel flow direction and the action of the transfer ports changes.
Now with air rushing over them, they become fuel outlet ports.

Fuel reaching them also comes from the pilot jet and now they serve essentially the same purpose as an accelerator pump on a more expensive type of carb...
they double or triple the fuel the engine can suck in for a few millliseconds as they see maximum venturi effect of air rushing through the tight opening created by the slightly cracked butterfly.
When closing the throttle at high revs, those little ports also act a coasting enrichener by allowing some extra fuel to be blown in to prevent lean backfiring caused by suddenly depriving the engine
of fuel at higher revs when snapping the butterfly closed.

Image

Depending on the butterfly position, sometimes the transition ports let more air into the pilot circuit and at other times they let more fuel out of the pilot circuit.....
once you understand their purpose and function, then you understand why the idle screw adjustment is just as critical as the pilot screw adjustment and why one affects the other.

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:24 pm 
Here are the results of rejetting Bob's BR and resintalling the original 156G rollers....
these runs were with the HiT clutch!
after seeing the results, I didn't even bother to try it with the stock clutch.

Image

I included one run of the completely stock configuration (in light blue) after retuning the carb with stock jetting and you can see that rejetting the carb did show a slight improvement over stock, but when limited by 6-26gram rollers, the improvement in 1/4 mile times were minimal.

I did notice that the HiT clutch lowered the upshift rpm from the normal 5800rpm to around 5000rpm when using the OEM weights....
it had to be the HiT clutch since I've never seen this effect from rejetting the carb.
Very odd...the higher revs at takeoff caused upshift at lower revs with the heavy weights.

I also included one run with stock jetting and the stock clutch using 3x19 sliders and 3x15 rollers (purple line)
as well as one run using the stock jetting and the HiT clutch using 3x19 sliders and 3x15 rollers (yellow line)

Image

What the graph shows is that on an otherwise stock bike, nothing will improve 0-60mph acceleration and 1/4 mile time as much as lighter rollers....
for basic driveability on most roads, this is beyond any doubt the most bang for your bucks.
It's the first mod you should consider.


what the graphs do not show is top end on an extended run.....that's where the main jet finally show it's stuff.
I didn't have room in memory to record it, but on an extended 1 mile run with the stock rollers and rejetted carb (45 Slow and 102 Main) the bike reached a 4-5 mph higher top speed with in the 1 mile range and I could tell by the low revs from the stock rollers at that speed that it had a little more left in reserve.
It also maintained speed on hills a little better than stock jetting, but if I rolled off and dropped the speed by 20mph and then tried to re-accelerate up to speed, it was a slug, sloooooowly regaining speed over 10-15 seconds.

I'm not telling the hardcore tuners here anything they haven't already discovered on their own, but for a BR rider who is just now considering some mods, I can safely say (and the above graphs confirm it) that any gains from simply rejetting the carb and not installing lighter rollers are only seen at topend.....less speed loss on grades and slightly higher top speed.

It will still take you forever (+/-35 seconds!) to reach topend and you're still in danger of becoming a "speedbump" when pulling out into Interstate traffic rolling 65mph.

No matter how fat you rejet your carb, you still want lighter weights in the variator.

and what the graphs to come will show is the two mods combined can be truly awesome!

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Shot Caller
Shot Caller
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 1412
Location: Alton, IL
Gender: Dude
The way it should be
2011 TR Donor
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:03 pm 
this is seeming to be a total comprehensive experience of performance mods and their effects.

I think it deserves to be a sticky and a must read for noobs... A place we can tell them to reference first if silly questions are asked.

_________________
'03 Ruckus - Snapshot - down with blown motor
'06 Big Ruckus - Evil Monkey - moved on to a better place
'09 Ruckus - Moto Chimp


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:04 am 
Thanks, Sam....that's what I was trying to do with this thread.

Most of the data posted here has already been posted in 15 or 20 different threads scattered
across the different section, but in small bits and bites...one mod at a time.

I'm just trying to summarize what we've learned in a single thread by taking 1 scoot from fully stock through the most common mods.

The only drivetrain component I decided not to test here is different contra springs....
I have a 10% over and 10% under Polini spring set and have played with them a bit.

normally in tuning, you would increase the contra tension by +10% to run heavier rollers and delay the upshift revs for better acceleration
or you could decrease the contra tension to run lighter rollers and still make a higher topend.

There are other ways to use the contra in tuning......
Some riders like a heavier contra because it gives a more positive downshift when rolling off the throttle....
what I've found in my testing is that for weights in the 90-140 gram range, the stock Honda contra spring is about right for most roads.

Like tuning the Delta clutch or HiT clutch by swapping out springs, changing the contra shifts the entire range of usable weights
up or down the scale. The tuning possibilities can be endless, within certain limits....
go too light and the belt can slip under load, go too heavy and the belt can delaminate and come apart.
Another tuning option is clutch pulleys with different helical track rates of turn....
some of these are specifically designed to work with 10% over/under contras.


Today I reinstalled the weight combination that gave top speed with the stock setup.

Here are the Veypor graphs showing 3 setups, all using the same variator configuration w/102 gram total weight.
3-19gram sliders and 3-15gram rollers with a 42 Slow jet and 102 Main jet and the HiT clutch.
3-19gram sliders and 3-15gram rollers with stock jets and HiT clutch.
3-19gram sliders and 3-15gram rollers with stock jets and stock clutch.

REVs

Image


With the HiT clutch handling most of the RPM drop at clutch engagement, I wasn't sure what to expect from these runs....
I had hoped there would be enough difference to notice, but I wasn't at all sure of that.
Most jetting gains are seen at topend when compared to a properly tuned stock carb.
A fatter pilot usually helps with initial takeoff, but the HiT clutch was now handling that.

I was wondering if the 102 grams weights would even allow enough change for the fat jets to stand out....
the rejetted carb had a few surprises in store for me, however!


Speed

Image


With all three configurations, the 1/4 mile speeds were within 3mph.....66-69mph.
(that's well within the range you'll see doing 6-8 runs of the same setup)
The 1/4 mile times were also tight, within 1.5 seconds....
not a lot and certainly not detectable by a rider's seat of the pants dyno.

But there WAS a distinct difference in the three configurations that showed up between 3 and 4 seconds in the run.

If I had not been using the Veypor, I would never have noticed it.


Speed @ 3 seconds

Image


In the 3-4 seconds range, the runs of the 3 different configurations perfectly separated into three distinct ranges.....
the stock jets and clutch runs showed about 24-25mph
the stock jets and HiT clutch showed about 27-28mph
the fatter jets and HiT clutch showed about 31-33mph

by the end of the run, all three setups were very tight, within standard deviation for run to run variance.


this is significant.....

What it is saying to me is the rejetted bike is now geared too low.....
the standard rule of tuning is the more power you make, the taller the gearing you can run effectively.

With stock jets and a stock configuration, lighter rollers lowers your gearing and makes better use of the available power.

With larger jets, the engine is making a little more power and its running out of it's effective gearing range towards the end of the run....
it needs taller gearing and for a CVT that means... heavier rollers!


Tomorrow I'll give it what it wants. :lol:

Some side by side comparisons of the best of each of the different configurations:

Image

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Junior Mint
Junior Mint

Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 202
Location: Auburn Alabama.
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:59 am 
To: http://mapq.st/Z5uC5S

From: http://mapq.st/14F6Dc5

See the difference. Went from 13 hours 10 minutes to 8 hours 21 minutes.

Thanks BRed, I opened your thread a few weeks ago then went to bike week in PCB. I knew it would be good. I didn't think it would be this good. This's fine work.

_________________
2006 Big Ruckus 250, Purchased on 12-10-2010 with only 171 miles. 4150 miles on 11-09-17
2009 Suzuki c50 se. new on 4/11. 14500 miles.


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:51 am 
Another rainy weekend here, so no test runs with the heavier weights on the stock variator....
actually I did a few runs but on wet roads with much caution, the runs were less than spectacular.

Last week in preparation for the J. Costa testing, I removed the Costa on #2.
I figured I'd get Bob's scoot setup and graphed before the one we ordered (from Spain, no less!) arrived.

That didn't work out, since on removal, I discovered I've worn out another Costa variator!

I checked the notes on #2 and found it had about 11,000 miles on it.
BioHazard's Costa lasted about 16,000 miles.

#2's J.Costa is not as bad as BioHazard's was but it's getting there.....
the bushing has excess freeplay, but not enough to wrap a dollar bill around the boss and reinsert into the bushing.
It may still have 3-4000 miles left in it...maybe not.

The more powerful your engine, the faster it wears a Costa.



Some background on variators and some animations to help you visualize how they work.

The Big Ruckus uses the same OEM variator deveolped for the Helix/Elite 250 series....
it uses 6 weights that move out by centrifigal force that act to close the variator front pulley.




At idle with the variator open you have a small pulley in the front and large pulley in the rear held in position by the contra spring.




As you give it gas and it spins up, the weights close the front pulley and force the rear pulley open, compressing the contra spring....
this is upshifting





The "gear" you're in at any given time is determined by the engine revs and your ground speed......
in this sense, there is an infinite number of gears on a CVT....the gearing constantly varies with speed and revs.
Thus Constant Variable Transmission? :meh:


The J.Costa Traverse Variator

With the J.Costa variator, the concept is the same, but instead of rollers slung outward by centrifugal force,
you have traverse (at an angle) mounted pins that push the pulley closed.





The Good


The Costa variator is an engineering masterpiece.....it starts with a lower low gear, it revs out to about 7000 rpm while accelerating,
then it upshifts and drops about 2000 rpm in reaching high gear, giving it enough room to reach 75mph before it tops 8000 rpm.

It extends the entire range of the CVT and it does in a way that no roller combinations can achieve.
With very light rollers, you can beat a Costa in the 1/4 mile, but it will smoke your ass in the next 1/4 and roll off and leave you.
With very heavy rollers, you can beat a Costa at topend, assuming you can catch up to it 3 or 4 miles down the road.
It is the perfect gearing compromise for a scooter.

Accelerate gently and it upshifts immediately, give good fuel mileage.
Accelerate hard by punching it and it hangs in low gear out to about 35-40 then upshifts gradually all the way out to 75mph.
It is very responsive to the throttle and makes your scooter think it's a sports bike!



The BAD

It sucks on mountain roads!
It will go through an endless annoying series of upshifts and downshifts, never finding the "sweet spot".
On mountain roads, light rollers will not only beat it, they will make the experience enjoyable.

The bronze bushing on the Costa wears out 4-5 times faster (maybe more....I know of one Helix with 90,000 miles on the original variator).
The Costa's bushing is good for about 10,000-15,000 miles of normal use. Under heavy use, it wears faster.
One CannonBall rider got 8000 miles. One 300 lb rider who live in the mountains of Virgina got 4000 miles!

It wears out pins very fast.....5000 miles is optimistic! 4000 miles is more realistic.
You see, as the pins wear down, the Costa gears down....at idle, the pulley is more open and you start to get belt noise.
The looser belt slips occasionally, especially on hills and the engine winds tighter before upshifting.
The looser the pulley gets from excessive pin wear, the faster the bronze bushing wears out from the loose pulley face wobbling.

To get maximum life from the Costa's bushing, check the pins frequently and change them as needed.

Image

Part of the Costa's problem comes from the fact that it uses the stock fixed pulley face.
The problem is that the face on the Costa pulley and face on the OEM fixed pulley do not match.
I use a Malossi MultiVar fixed face.....its closer to the Costa's face angle, but no cigar!

Here's a closeup of the above picture:

Image

I cut a piece of cardboard and placed it between the two pulley halves.....
using my calipers, I measured the distance between the two faces at many points.

What you get is 11.3mm to one face and 11.8mm to the other (the OEM face is worse...11.3mm and 12mm)
Since the fixed pulley is splined to the shaft and the Costa's pulley is free to spin on the boss and since the two pulleys
have different face angles, they turn at different rates.
The belt slightly tips to self align and at topend with the pulley fully closed, the two faces make contact and are turning at slightly
different speeds.

And since the Costa's traverse pin system is VERY effective at pushing the pulley closed, eventually they start to wear each other.

What the Costa needs is to be supplied with BOTH pulley faces.....that would fix most of it's issues.




The UGLY


So if you let the pins wear down to the point the pulley becomes loose enough to let the belt slip a bit, and if the bronze bushing gets
too much clearance with the boss and IF you still continue to run it a high speeds, this begins to happen:

Image


Image


The bronze bushing protrudes just enough to cut a perfect ring in the fixed face.....


Image


This causes aluminum and bronze chips to distributed around the CVT, becoming embedded in the drive belt and clutch pads.



Now if you continue to ignore the condition of your pins, soon you have this at around 12000 miles:


Image



Image



And if you still have not been checking your pins and bronze bushing condition and let it go 13000 miles:


Image



Image


and finally, if you make it to 14000 miles, you get this:


Image



Image


Yep, that's pretty ugly.......
can you imagine what that must be like to have that happen while rolling at 70mph??

All the above mileage estimates are for optimal conditions......
run it harder or with heavier loads or on steeper grades and all the wear patterns are accelerated.
It could happen much sooner than you think.



So.....the lesson of today is:
the Costa is the hottest variator made for the Big Ruckus, hands down.
If you try one, you will love it!



The moral of today's lesson is:
if you're going to use a J.Costa, service it frequently, check those pins every few thousand miles and replace them when worn,
keep a constant watch of the fit of the boss to the bronze bushing and know when to stop using it and have it serviced! :wc_flag:



and most important of all, keep your old primitive OEM variator handy.....sooner or later, you WILL need it! :lol:

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:47 pm 
Still thunder booming here today, so I was reinstalling one of the OEM variators on #2.

Before the J.Costa came along, I had done a little work on one of the OEM variators to see what might be improved for performance.

Some of these mods were done after observations of how the variator worked.
I had already tried dozens of roller combinations and boosted the scoot's 1/4 mile times.

One of the first tweaks was to clean up the edges of the trust plate guides.....
there are 3 little bushings (actually called SLIDERS!) that hold the back plate centered on the variator.

Image

These "sliders" ride on 3 rails cast into the variator housing.

Image

Using a small flat file, I beveled the edges of these guide rails to insure the back plate moved smoothly when opening and closing the variator.

Image


there were two other simple mods I did to the OEM variator that showed a small boost in performance....
this was all done in 2007, long before I had a Veypor so any benefits were never graphed to confirm how effective they were.

The first mod was I used a dremel to relieve the variator wall at the end of each track.....
the rollers hit the edge of the variator when fully shifted outward and stop.
The rollers actually leave a mark on the variator housing where they touch and stop.

Using a dremel routing bit, I cut a small groove, maybe 2mm deep right along this mark....
this allows the rollers to ride up the ramp just a bit further and bump your topend gearing by a tiny amount.


Image

You want to stay at least 1mm from the end of the ramp to insure you don't lower it....
your goal is to allow the roller to move a little further away from the boss and ride higher on the ramp end.

At this time in 2006-07 I was working with BioHazard using rollers only and had already discovered that lightening the rollers improved
acceleration, but at the expense of topend speed.

It was obvious by looking at the smooth polished ramps that rollers actually slid more than they rolled.

In an attempt to use heavier rollers and still delay the upshift, I used a prick punch and made two rows of punch marks in 3 of the ramps.
The first set were just beyond the at rest positiion of the rollers and the last set were about 1/2 way up the ramp.

In these ramps I installed heavier rollers with lighter rollers in the smooth ramps.
The idea was, as the rollers slid outward during acceleration, when they hit the punch marks, they hesitate and have to roll OVER them.
This slight delay allows the engine to recover revs, flattening the curve.

It actually worked pretty well but since I din't own the Veypor than, I didn't have any proof of that.

When DR Pulley sliders came along, I discovered they do essentially the same thing.
I also found that you do not want to use DR Pulley sliders in the punched tracks since it stops them dead for several seconds....
they cannot roll over the punch marks.

The only possible downside is the potential for more roller wear, but in the testing I did, it didn't seem to be that bad.
What I found is that I could run heavier combinations that would allow better topend and still get a respectable 0-60 time.
It "felt" like the modified variator gave the scoot 3 gearing steps as the rollers stopped briefly and then rolled over the punch marks.


Image

Anyway about that time, the J.Costa variator came long and I put the modified variator back on the shelf and it has collected dust.....
until today!

While waiting for a new bronze bushing for the J.Costa, I'm going to reinstall it on #2 and I'll get some performance data to this tweaked out OEM variator.

Polished guide rails for smoother action, punched ramps to slow the rollers' outward movement and a relief channel to allow them to move further up the ramp.

YES......almost every sub-system on the scoot has room for minor "improvements!"
(until the Veypor tells you otherwise) :banger:


Image

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:54 pm 
The sun came out this afternoon and dried the roads so I finally got to test run the scoot with 120gram weight
3 - 19 gram sliders and 3 - 21gram rollers (its what I had!)

I made 8 runs then discarded the best and worst, leaving 6 runs and picked the best 2 to show here.
These runs are the Red and Black lines.

Again to get a better overview of the effects over the range of weights, I included runs of the same configuration but with 102g weight.
These are the Blue and Gray lines.

Also I included the 3 best runs of the stock weight of 156gram rollers with stock as it came, retuned carb and rejetted carb....
these are light colored lines...yellow, pale blue and green.

By now, you should be able to tell the clutch configurations of Stock or HiT simply by looking at the rpm graph.....
if not go back and review the previous 12 graphs to find out which clutch first rolls the bike at 1000rpm lower than the other! :lol:
"two of these lines are not like the others...."

A note:
with the stock air filter, I could not run a 45 Pilot.....actually I should say I could not TUNE the 45 Pilot.....
it was too rich to get any adjustment, so after 2 days I replaced it with a 42 Pilot.

Once the K&N filter shows up, that might change but right now the scoot is just running a new OEM Honda filter I had on hand.



RPM

the weight and carb configuration is printed for each run

Image

remember the colors on each graphs do not correspond to any other graphs in older posts in the thread.....
the Veypor software assigns them a color in the order that you open the runs, so the colors for each post is unique.
It's hard enough to divide them into dark and light lines!

one surprising line to watch is the green line......

HP

Image

As you might expect, the HIT always produces a sharper HP spike....
even in the case of the 156G weights, the spike was more subdued and delayed, but was there none the less.
the increased clutch engagement speed somehow spins the variator up fast enough that it upshifts at lower rpms.
This could be tuned for and shows promise for a combo of maybe 130-140grams of weight?!




G-forces

Image

the HiT shows maximum Gs with weights in the 100-120gram range...
with the OEM weights, the effect was not as noticeable

Speed

Image

120 grams with the HiT clutch and rejetted carb was the first weight combo to consistently reach 69-70mph.


Stats

the best run of each config compared to stock (last column on the stats chart)
if the combination never reached minimum speed for a give field it just show a hyphen -

Image



This last graph just shows the finish order at the end of the 1/4 mile.


Image



The green line is intriguing....
it's peak power came later in the run and towards the end it was gaining fast!
what this is saying is that with a rejetted carb thats properly tuned, a clean air filter, a HiT clutch, a 6000 mile old belt and a hot valve adjustment,
156G is starting to get some repect!

It shows that critical threshohold needed to top 80mph.
you have to be turning under 6500revs at 65mph.....
if you can't do that, you'll rev limit @ 8500 rpm before the bike can ever reach 80.

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:31 pm 
Before installing the new J.Costa, I realized there was one widely used weight setup in the BR community that I had not tested on Bob's scoot.....
126 grams total weight using 6 - 21 gram Reflex rollers.

This afternoon, I pulled the variator and installed 6 21 gram rollers......
this is the most practical, reliable, fuel efficient not mention THE cheapest upgrade you can do for your BR.

Reflex roller sets still cost about 10-12 bucks a set and you'll need two set.
Each set has 3-31gram rollers (white jacket with a blue core) and 3-21gram rollers (all black).
You want the 3 black rollers from each set.....total cost is <$24.

Here's the graphs of 126g total weight compared to 102g and 120g slider/roller combinations.

RPM

Image


Speed

Image


The wind was gusting during these runs and I made runs in both directions so you can see when I had a head wind or a tailwind by the spread of the speeds.
What comes out in the graphs is the Reflex rollers are pretty close to the speeds of the slider/roller combinations near the end of the runs.

What I like about the 126gram weight is made more clear if you pick a single point on the speed graph and compare it to the RPM graph.
Let's take 12 seconds, for instance......

At 12 seconds, the scoot is running at the most standard highway speed in the US......55mph +/- 3mph.
now if you check the RPM graph, you'll see 126g is turning about 5800rpm, 120g is turning about 6500rpm and 102g is turning about 6800 rpm.
That's the fuel mileage factor.....at any given speed, the lower the revs you turn, the less fuel you burn.

Yes, the lighter weight slider/roller combos are more fun, will win the 1/4 mile run every time, will reaccelerate faster after braking, will pass cars with more ease,
but if we ever get to a point where fuel costs become a primary consideration in tuning, remember the 126G weight class.
It will save you money and still make your BR acceptable for highway travel.
It will still do 0-60 in 12-13 seconds vs 24 seconds for a stock BR with 156g weights.

not too bad for a $20 upgrade?

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 

Iron Butt
Iron Butt
User avatar
Years on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TRYears on TR

Posts: 3886
Location: Bethany, NC
Gender: Dude

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A New Big Ruckus Build
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:56 am 
I had a question from a rider using the J.Costa variator....
How do you know when to replace the pins?

The first clue is the variator becomes more noisy.
You'll hear more "belt slap" from lower belt tension due to the fact the pulley width is becoming wider.
You may hear chatter from the CVT when pulling out and accelerating...this is from slight belt slippage.

If you experience either of these (or if you're approaching 4000 miles of use) the best way is to look at them.
Each pin has a wear indicator on the tip. That's what the little hole in the tip is for.

It works like a tread gauge on tires.

Image



Image


Above is a new pin from Bob's new variator, the center one is from #2 and right one is from BioHazard after completing the 2008 CannonBall run.

The center pin has about 4500 miles and is ready for replacement.
The pin on the right has over 7500 miles....it crossed the US both ways and is completely worn out.
It is probably about 3000 miles over the wear limit!

According to J.Costa tech support, if users replaced the pins before they wore down, as pictured above, the wear to the bronze bushing would be greatly reduced.
Now that I understand how this wear occurs, I agree with their assessment....the pins not only shift the variator, they maintain belt tension at low revs.
When they get worn to the point the hole in the tip is no longer visible, the pulley is wide open at lower rpm and the belt is running on the boss.

I've recently been talking with DR Pulley by email about their OverRange variator designed to work with their sliders and discovered they also make
replacement pins for the J.Costa in several weight ranges. They are sending me some to test on #2 and I intend to try one of their CN250 variators on BioHazard.

I now believe that most complaints about the J.Costa variators are actually due to owners running the pins well past their wear limits thus creating a condition
that accelerates wear to the center bushing.

The J.Costa is still the highest performance variator I've seen and for those who want maximum performance, it's well worth the additional effort
and expense of replacing the pins when needed. If you use a Costa, check those pins frequently!

_________________
BioHazard


Image



"You live and learn......at any rate, you live."
~Douglas Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Check out who is online and not out riding.

Rucksters browsing this forum: No rucksters and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
 
Copyright Owners: click here to report copyright infringement

Technophobes: click here if you are having issues registering or logging in

TotalRuckus.com 2005-2015 (That’s 10 F’ing years!) - All Rights Reserved --- Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group