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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:30 pm 
Chuck, you may just be seeing an artifact the TinyTach's slow refresh rate......
mine showed the same thing in the early roller testing and it conflicts a little with the Veypor testing results.

I think the 2 seconds refresh rate is the culprit and I know from comparing the Veypor to the TT in earlier testing, it was definitely flattening out the acceleration curve on every run.....I never saw the highest points or lowest point in the runs.

It made the BR's variator seem more linear than it really is......
the difference is 8-10 samples per 20 second run vs several thousand samples per 20 second run.

The TT is still a very useful driving and tuning tool, but just less accurate for this type of work?


edit:
one other thing Chuck......
your J.Costa is brand new and right now it's curve will look very different from the ones I've posted with several thousand miles on the pins. I still need to graph that configuration, when I replace the pins......
I downloaded the original data back in Septmeber to a school loaner laptop and haven't been able to find it. :|

the Costa with new pins starts off like a drag bike, but becomes tamer with a few thousand miles......
it will still compete favorably with anything out there for cruising, touring and fuel mileage, but it will lose some 0-60 performance and it becomes less effective on steep grades.....
at the extreme ends of the performance range, carefully selected rollers or sliders will thrash the Costa, under very specific conditions, on one end of the scale.

The Costa is still the best overall compromise for a roadrunner.
I think the Costa might be improved with a 10% lighter spring?

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Shot Caller
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:26 pm 
I think you're gonna shit when you remove two pins from your costa there Ed.

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:51 pm 
I'm looking forward to that.

I haven't really tried experimenting with the Costa other than just pulling a few pins and checking the times....this was done about two days before leaving on the CBR.

It was just enough to see that some additional gains were possible.


While daydreaming on this, I envisioned a coaxial electromagnetic coil built into the Costa's hub that could "lock" some of the pins into a specific position on the fly......?

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:01 pm 
some conclusions from the graphs, with the standard disclaimer that these results are from my setup and your will most likely vary......typically, the more power your bike makes, the heavier the roller weight you can run with good results.


Best drag/street race bike combos (fastest 0-60 times).........90-120g
downshifts easily, good for mountains, top speed - 70-72mph, fuel mileage <60mpg
Any well tuned bike running any of these weight combos will beat the J.Costa's 0-60 time..... every time.
Only a Costa with brand new pins on a well tuned bike would stand a chance of running with these roller/slider configurations.

Top combo.....90g, 6x15g Daytona rollers
2nd...............93g, 3x31g Reflex rollers
3rd...............114g, 6x19g sliders

Best Utility/commuter weight class...........120-135g
I think this is the right weight range for most riders...
Light weights above will beat it in the 1/4 mile and heavier weights might get a few more miles per gallon at top speed, but this range comes closest to giving performance comparable to the Costa.....just enough weight to fully shift the variator but still light enough to wind out over 6000 when pulling out.


The fastest 0-60 and 1/4 mile time in this range was with 129 Grams, using mixed rollers, 3x26g +3x17g.....
this combo hit about 5900-6000 before upshifting and pulled hard all the way to 8000.


the poor man's Costa?
In my opinion, it's got to be 126Gram, 6x21 gram black Reflex rollers.
....at a total cost of about $20 bucks (2 OEM sets of Reflex rollers then use the black rollers from both sets)
This combo gave of 0-60 speeds equal to the 19g Sliders and with slightly better topend...maybe 5mph.
In my tests, the 21g rollers will beat the Costa in the 1/4 mile.
It also reached 77mph @7900rpm on the Insterstate.

The Costa has reached and held 84mph @8300rpm but that was under ideal conditions.

At Cruise speeds, the Costa will get better fuel mileage than most combos in this range.

Best fuel economy.....135g-150g
If you want 70+mpg, stay in this range.

Even lightening the OEM rollers by 1 gram each showed a significant improvement over stock weight.
In fact I didn't post the graph, but just mixing the weights, by installing a set of 6 Reflex rollers, 3x31g + 3x21g, for the same total weight of 156 grams........ improved the 0-60 time over stock BR rollers of 6x26g.

On the sliders......
In my experience, sliders need to be about 1-2 grams lighter per slider to give rpm ranges similar to that of rollers....
for example, if you like 126gram rollers, 114 gram sliders give similar acceleration?


At speeds of 20-40 the sliders showed very fast response to throttle changes.....they downsifted easily
true to their name the Sliders rarely showed any sort of drop in rpms when accelerating......
once max rpms were reached, they just held that same rpm as the upshift occured then climbed out towards 8000revs.
Almost all roller combos showed a distinct drop in rpm as the upshift occurred.

But......
Find your precise power band and the precise DR Pulley slider weight to reach it during takeoff......
(I'm guessing somewhere around 6x 22-24g Sliders)......... and you'll have an almost unbeatable BR.

3x28g Sliders + 3x19g Sliders was my favorite slider combo. This combo got surprisingly good mileage.

Sliders definitely get lower fuel mileage than an equivalent roller weight, in my experience.
6x15gram rollers actually got better mileage than 6x19gram DR Pulley sliders in my tests.
But sliders should give longer life, based on their shape......they're already flat in all the right places.

DR Pulley Sliders will always give you a lower low gear than will Rollers.....
That's good for some things and not so good for other things, if you think about it a bit........



there's a neat surge of speed that occurs at about 1 second into the run, with most midrange roller weights......
it lasts about 1/2 second and is the greatest change in speed of the entire run.
In that critical half second, just as movement starts, the speed leaps from 5mph to 18-20mph.... in 1/2 second.
If you could hold that acceleration for another 1/2 second or even 1/4 second....at that same rate of change,
you would doing 35-40mph.... in 3 seconds!

If you were building a 1/4mile street BR, that 1/2 second is where you want to focus.....
at that rate of change, every .1 seconds is an additional 3mph in speed.
speed gained in those first few seconds is hard to make up!

I'll post some graph blow-ups showing this "surge" and where it aligns with rpm and HP.......
peak torgue occurs just as it starts and peak HP occurs just as it ends.....interesting!

edit:
corrected "down" to "up"
D'oH!

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:36 pm 
Ok here are some graphs showing "the Jump", as I've come to call it...... :D
these are each top runs with various weights of rollers.
Not all runs show the Jump.
Not all roller combos show the Jump! :|

Image


The Jump is determined, or influenced, by several things......(this is just my opinion!) :D
1) carb tuning...your carb slide needs to open fast and punch hard! (slide orifice and jetting)
2) clutch springs.....this sets total revs at the point of launch ( flyweight spring tension, contra strength)
3) clutch/bell condition......(this is why blowing the dust out of the clutch bell gives you a nice kick in the ass! ... the Jump!)
4) actual low gear....remember you can gear TOO low? (boss length, belt width, shaved pulley faces, roller diameter)
5) tire size.....yep, it looks like it shows up more often with smaller diameter rear tires

I tried to cut these 4 charts to line up time wise....they're within a few tenths of a second


Revs bottom out and Torque peaks just as the Jump begins.........


Image


Horsepower peaks right at the end of the Jump.


Image

and at the end of 1/4 mile, the finish order is usually the same order you see at the end of Jump......

usually, whoever gets the Jump, gets the Race! (pun intended!) :D


Image

all of these did 0-60 in less than 14 seconds.......

note 3 of these combos would literally be running neck and neck at the finish!

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Shot Caller
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:13 pm 
i will probably need my bike rejetted a little leaner than it is now.

when i do i'll have my mechanic drill the carb slide.

what diameter would you recommend BRed?

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:24 pm 
most of the jetting literature for Keihins I've seen says go one size over.........
that usually means a 3/32" hole bored out to 1/8"......

If you get it too large, the slide may float open sooner than you like and you can get a run away throttle condition that makes it hard to set idle.

but the forgiving thing about this mod is if you get it wrong, take a soldering iron and melt the port closed and try again!

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CANADIUS MAXIMUS
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:58 am 
holy-shit guys....a new jet is like 2 or 4 dollars!.....not worth drilling,....certainly not worth soldering a mistake!...... :ucrazy: .......I'm gonna be bringing a handful of # 45 pilot jets with me to CON,...just incase anyone wants to get rid of that off-idle slump!....it'll help alot with off-the-line throttle response, and won't effect the gas-mileage at all... 8)

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:30 pm 
Quote:
holy-shit guys....a new jet is like 2 or 4 dollars!.....not worth drilling,....certainly not worth soldering a mistake!......




I absolutely agree, 100% all the way, but........
we're talking about the Venturi port in the bottom of the Keihin's vacuum operated slide. :D

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CANADIUS MAXIMUS
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:48 pm 
ooooops....sorry Ed...i thought he already had it drilled out..... :oops:

I drilled my 1st one,...but when i got the new CV boot with the new slide....i left it alone.....did'nt really notice any change in accelleration when i did the 1st time.... :|

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:56 pm 
on drilling the slide, (in my experience):
what it does is, it brings the main jet online and into the mix sooner.......
since a fatter idle (slow) jet is adding more fuel over the entire range of the carb, if you have installed a fat idle jet, you may not notice the effect of drilling the slide as much?

the slide Venturi port is sized to dampen or slow throttle response time......in feedback design this is called "deadband"...
it's like freeplay in the throttle cable....you always want some deadband to insure this setting doesn't override your tuning.

Deadband in the slide also prevents handling issues if someone carelessly or erratically lets off or hammers on the throttle at the wrong time, like in a hard corner, by controlling when compression braking or surge can occur, which reduces how much these two factors affect weight distribution to the rear or front tire.

In this respect a CV carb's slower slide speed is like the linked left brake lever......
it is a great safety feature to a new rider, but an annoyance to a more experienced rider.

A CV is more forgiving and will override erratic hand movement and smooth out the ride.
Drilling out the CV's port just allows the slide lift and fall a little faster than it would with the stock port.

For comparison, think of a cable controlled slide, like a Mikuni.....
when you crank the throttle open, the slide lifts immediately.

now add a rubber band between the cable and the Mik's slide......
you just added some "deadband".
now when you crank the throttle open, the rubber band stretching will slightly delay the slide's opening speed.
You can still open it all the way, it just takes longer to happen.

This is essentially the effect of the smaller port on a CV type vacuum slide.

Drilling the port only produces a noticeable gain for a 1-2 second interval that starts when you crank the throttle to wide open. It is basically a 1/4 mile mod.


The Keihin's vacuum controlled slide is the main reason most performance tuners toss them and install a cheaper cable controlled slide carb of almost any brand.

If that little sucker didn't have, like, 12 hoses and 15 wires running to it, I would probably do the same! :|

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CANADIUS MAXIMUS
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:50 pm 
Hmmm.......flatslide carb,....hhmmmmm.....maybe,....hhmmmm...... 8) ........ :wink:

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:35 pm 
well, you're already going to have one advantage......
a J.Costa!! :(

I reassembled mine and the bushing play was just too excessive.
It didn't make any noise and it still opened/closed properly but during deceleration when belt tension lightened up, I could see the moving pulley wobbling.

So I'll be running the ole original OEM variator with a choice selection of rollers or sliders. According to my tests, about 22-23 gram sliders should duplicate the acceleration curve of the 21 gram rollers while giving the initial low gearing of sliders.
The 19 gram sliders were closer to 17 gram rollers in rpm and top end and just wound too tight too fast, for my taste, to make best use of the BR's powerband.
This year it will be all about tuning. :|

In all the slider and roller tests, the best all around performance came when the rpms were right at 6000.......after the upshift.

I know we'll have a very interesting run this year! :banger:

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CANADIUS MAXIMUS
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:30 pm 
Hmmm......has me thinking I should swap my OEM variator (re-machined faces) back in, with 3 , 19 sliders, and 3 , 21 sliders,.........and don't forget,...I'm still running the 10% spring,...and a Reflex driven pulley....... :wink: .....gonna be fun.....but honestly,...my top-end does'nt seem a whole lot better with the Costa,...I'm thinking that 10% spring is really soaking-up the top-end power.... :|

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Iron Butt
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 Post subject: Re: DR Pulley slider upgrade kit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:42 pm 
I suspect you're right on that.......
before I left on the cross country ride for the CBR I installed a new stiff Honda spring......
my thinking was it would help me hold a lower gearing on hills and I wouldn't need to swap to light rollers on the old variator in the mountains.

The stiffer spring did allow a few more rpm on take-off but it was not nearly enough to help with steep grades at high altitude.

What it did, in a big way......it doubled the distance it took to get up to 80mph.

The Costa liked the older worn and slightly compressed spring better.


on the other hand, on the Zuma 50, I'm seeing a flat spot at about 30-40kpm (20-25mph)......

It starts off strong and finishes strong, but right in the middle, it gets weak and wussie....

I'm thinking that installing a stiffer contra spring will help hold a lower gear, just a few seconds longer, before I start messing with the rollers.

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