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Needs Training Wheels
Needs Training Wheels

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 Post subject: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:15 pm 
Short description of the problem: bike won’t start despite having fuel, spark, compression.

Long version:

Scooter was sitting for 6 months outside, per former owner. Nothing happened when key is turned. Dead battery, right? Nope: When I opened the battery compartment, found it half filled with water, covering the bottom of the fusebox, relay, and ecm test connector. Bad sign.

Drained water and dried the wet area w compressed air. Turning the key on generates a click from the relay and a brief humming noise from the fuel pump. However, no other electrics work (lights, horn, turn signal, starter, starter relay), even with a good battery.

Fuses test ok w ohm-meter, but the 10 amp fuse has no voltage. After various dead ends, I jumper from + battery to one 10a fuse terminal and all electrics except starter (and starter relay) now work–-even with the key off.

After trying to make some sense of the wiring diagram, I pried the relay from its socket and found it badly corroded. Problem found? Great hopes after scraping and wire-brushing the terminals, but no joy. I then figured out how to lift the relay socket off its holder and discovered a corroded and broken r/w wire! Replaced the broken spade terminal-holder and suddenly the 10 amp fuse and electrics all work like they’re supposed to.

Except…

…the bike won’t start with either kick or electric. Checked for spark (good) despite plug (worn to ~ 0.040”). Regapped it and also tried a new CR7HAS. Still no start. Plug doesn’t look wet. Compression seems ok (by feel), so what’s left?

Fuel and/or air. I’ve never worked on fuel injection, so took off the air filter cover…and a bunch of oil poured out! Wtf? Looks like it was from the transmission, not the engine. I cleaned the air filter and housing, but still won’t start, either with or without filter, or starting fluid. Finally decided to remove the injector and see what happens. What happens is that a spray (not a mist; does that matter?) of fuel comes out with each stroke of the fuel pump when the starter motor is turning the engine. But bike still won’t start.

Removed throttle body and tried squirting starter fluid into intake; won’t start.

Cleaned the throttle body; won’t start.

However, if I take the injector out of its port while still letting it spray (“Let us spray.”) into its hole, bike almost starts. Does this mean anything to you? It doesn’t to me–-I’ve tried a bunch of fuel/air ratios and none have come close to starting.

What have I overlooked/misunderstood? I don’t know anything about the various sensors or how to test them, and my shop manual is for the older, high-carb-diet Metro.

Thanks for reading this far and any suggestions.

--garicao

"We're lost, but we're making good time."


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Shot Caller
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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:21 pm 
I take it this is a fuel injected Zoomer?

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Donkey Puncher
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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:52 pm 
Is there water pooled up in exhaust? The O2 sensor could have been sitting in water like the other electronics.

But man...I think you may need a new harness if not more.

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Needs Training Wheels
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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:03 pm 
Sorry, it's a 2013 Metro NCH50.


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Shot Caller
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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:18 pm 
Version2.0 wrote:
Is there water pooled up in exhaust? The O2 sensor could have been sitting in water like the other electronics.

But man...I think you may need a new harness if not more.


There is nothing worse than water. Water can mess thing up more than most

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Needs Training Wheels
Needs Training Wheels

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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:42 pm 
Update 9/6/17

Bike will (sometimes) start for a second or two if the fuel injector is unbolted and sitting loose a half inch above (but not in) its port. I would think that means not enough air or too much fuel. What can be causing this? [No MIL error codes. Air filter’s fine.]

Earlier, removed throttle body. Some varnish (don’t know anything about FI) that came off with solvent, but this made no difference.

I then took off the Idle Air Control Valve. Manual says the powered-on slide valve is supposed to move back and forth; mine rotates. Misprint or problem? Sprayed with carb cleaner and compressed air–-no change.

Removed and cleaned throttle body sensor assembly, again no change.

Loosened and created a gap at the front throttle body holder rubber boot to allow more air, but this also made no difference; nor did spraying carb cleaner or starting fluid into the fuel injector port.

Have not yet looked at the oxygen sensor, EOT sensor, crankcase position sensor, or their wiring. Could they even cause this?

Any other ideas?


I have no HDS Pocket Tester, but I made a jumper for the Data Link Connector (DLC) and there seem to be no stored error codes, either.

Anyone in DC area have a pocket tester to rent or loan? If not, can you recommend ones to buy?

Thanx.

--garicao

"It seemed like a good idea...at the time."


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Needs Training Wheels
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 Post subject: Re: Won’t start: water damage or red herring?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:15 pm 
A couple more questions, for anyone who understands this stuff: (1) In terms of air/fuel mixture (which seems to be the problem here), does the ECM do anything besides change the frequency and duration of fuel injector squirts (based on various sensor inputs), and control the Idle Air Control Valve?

As for the IACV, it rotates cw and ccw (which seems to be what the manual means by moving “back and forth”), However, it lines up with a locating pin which would keep it from rotating, so is there a solenoid to pull the cylinder back and allow it to turn? Which of the 4 IACV wires would you jumper at what voltage to test this?

(2) More importantly, despite continuing no-start problem, i get no MIL error codes with and without jumpered DLC. Does this suggest a bad ECM? Would a good ECM not show codes from any bad sensors? Am i overlooking something? Would hate to buy an expensive part and find that it wasn’t the problem. But everything i've been able to test had been ok...

--garicao


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