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 Post subject: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:17 pm 
I've made several statements over the last couple of days that have been based more on analytical concerns than actual performance results. Many in the community are running some form of a 45T Final Gear, whether it be from a Metropolitan or an aftermarket Kitaco. I just wanted to open this thread for discussion because I see a lot of Noobie questions about the installation as a sole means for performance. Those of us who have changed know that you still gotta have the power in the motor to turn the gear. Changing the Final Gear alone could result in a loss of performance (unless you have an extremely long flat, wind-free ride) and could be a cost that shouldn't be done early in the mod list. I do think it is a great change for the Big Bore Honda motor with the other mods usually associated (carb, variator, CDI). Anyways, here's some numbers that I posted elsewhere to give those concerned some ideas:

Ron Ayer's part numbers shown (FG= Final Gear, CS= Countershaft, CG= Counter Gear, DS= Drive shaft):

Ruckus (NPS50):
FG, P/N 23430-GEZ, 47T
CS, P/N 23421-GEZ, 12T
CG, P/N 23422-GEZ, 42T/12T
DS, P/N 23411-GEZ 12T

Met (CH50):
FG, P/N 23430-GET, 45T
CS, P/N 23421-GET, 13T
CG, P/N 23422-GET, 42T/13T
DS, P/N 23411-710, 12T

The FG OD drives the CS OD. The CS OD also drives the CG ID. The CG OD drives the DS.

The FG to CS gear set and the CS to CG are both straight cut gears. The CG to DS set is helical cut.

I found no measurable difference between the Met and Ruckus driveshafts.

The full set change involves the FG, CS, and CG. The gear ratio change is the differenace between 47:12 (Ruckus) versus 45:13 (Metro), or 3.91 versus 3.46, respectively. This is 11.5%.

A change in the Final Gear only (not recommended BY THIS WRITER) results in a 47:12 versus a 45:12, or 3.91 versus 3.75, or approximately 4.1%

As a comparison, this is approximately the same change that going to a 140/90-10 tire from a 130/90-10 tire would give (60.36 circumference versus 62.58 or 3.7%).

Another common change popping up is the change to a 130/90-12 from the 10" rim. This change is nearly equivalent to the full Met 3-gear changeover, 60.36 circumference versus 66.64 or 10.4%.

In my application on my current build, I went with a "fatty" 205/50-10 rear wheel. The circumference on this tire is 56.77, a reduction of 3.59" or 6.3%. I utilized the full set of Metro gears in my transmission increasing my ratio by 11.5%, so my overall gain is 5.2%. From what I have heard from other riders using the 58.1cc Big Bore, I should be right in the ballpark for acceleration AND top end.

Hope this discussion helps... we need to get this out like many of the other mods so guys don't go off, spend money, and then wonder why this didn't work the same for them... As always, if anyone sees errors in my calculations or reasonings, please comment. I moved this discussion to a new thread so we stopped trampling the 58.1cc Supermotor discussion with gear talk.

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:49 am 
Do you happen to know the tooth count on the Kitaco gears? I can see your concern about running just the final gear, the mesh has to be somewhat off. It probably results in more friction as well an our little motors can't waste any more power than they have to.


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MyMisterWannaB
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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:59 pm 
nice writeup!

anybody notice any diff with the heilical vs straight? noise? perf?

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:01 pm 
If you really want to mess with gearing.the dio and sym dd50 gears will work on the stock ruckus engine.if you mix match them you can get different gear ratios.there are also a lot more gears available for dio.here is the pictures of the dio and ruckus gears side by side so you can see that its the same size.

Image
same length
Image
same shaft diameter
Image
this is the piece you need from the Dio engine.

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:49 pm 
makes a lot of sense. nice write up


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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:36 am 
This should be a sticky


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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:29 pm 
sorry to bring this back from the dead. but id rather bump a old thread than start a new one. as i am currently doing my research on this as well but according to my calculations.

isnt going from 3.91(stock ruckus) to 3.46(stock metro) a -11.5% change ?
so technically your change would be a total change of -17.8% ?
and a neg change in gearing = faster accel/lower top end ?

please correct me if im wrong. but im trying to figure this out as well.

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:57 pm 
a.spl wrote:
id rather bump a old thread than start a new one.
isnt going from 3.91(stock ruckus) to 3.46(stock metro) a -11.5% change ?
and a neg change in gearing = faster accel/lower top end ?

reanimating an old thread is much more encouraged here than creating a new one. so thanks for that.
a negative change in gearing means less revolutions of the driving wheel (rear for ruckus) per one revolution of the engine's crank.

that means faster speed and lower acceleration.
see what i am saying?

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:18 pm 
obviously im a noob, but how much would clutch springs, polini variator, and 5.6 gram weights offset the gear change. would it then maybe be worth it....yes this is a questgion..

(assuming you also have posh cdi, high air flow, upjet, etc....)


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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:23 pm 
Sooooooo how much more Top Speed with a Met Gear Conversion?
What about hills?

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:00 pm 
kommut wrote:
obviously im a noob, but how much would clutch springs, polini variator, and 5.6 gram weights offset the gear change. would it then maybe be worth it....yes this is a questgion..
(assuming you also have posh cdi, high air flow, upjet, etc....)


Okay, I'm not going to throw up the Noobie banner, but welcome. My original discussion dealt with gearing only. The items you mentioned do not affect the final gear ratio one bit. The final ratio is what it is. If you will, consider the CVT the transmission part and the gear set (final drive) the differential. Changes can be made in each. As far as your question on effect:

clutch springs = effect launch RPM, ie: RPM when clutch starts to grab
polini variator = smoother ramp through "transmission gears", possible higher top gear
5.6 gram weights = effects acceleration timing, ie: how fast the variator opens, drag and load sensitive
posh cdi = affects maximum RPM motor can electrically attain; some change in timing also (?)
high air flow = increase fuel charge flow into ignition chamber
upjet = varies fuel charge tunable to air flow

Nothing to affect gearing, but all essential for performance maximization. PS - these are all IMHO. Others may clarify my generalities.

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:13 pm 
Honest Mike wrote:
Sooooooo how much more Top Speed with a Met Gear Conversion?
What about hills?

-Honest Minds want 2 Know


Okay, first let me say I broke a cardinal rule and changed a lot at once. I have a nice running scoot, but I'm going to be doing individual item tuning this fall/winter to optimize all my changes. As far as the top speed with the final drive gear change, I attain 46 -48 regularly and have hit over 50 downhill in a tuck. Beautiful acceleration compared to stock, due not to the gearing, but the power of the big bore and the upgraded clutch. I am a heavy guy, 275#. I am trying to reduce weight as a performance upgrade, but its not happening quickly. The key thing that I can lay on the Met gearing for sure is the fact that my motor does NOT rev into the 10K range at all. I top at about 9500 downhill over 50 MPH. Call it load or drag or whatever, but with the steep gears, it just does not have enough horses to power any higher. Motor is stout, so I think I'd rather load it than over rev it. That being said, I may be able to get more speed with stock Ruckus gears, smaller rear tire (currently running a 140), and letting the engine rev out. It's all in what you"re after. I prefer to cruise in the 40's, high-8K RPM... and getting there rather quickly indeed (clutch and variator tuning).

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:31 pm 
hey mike . since i went to a stretched tire out back with decreased diasmeter i popped in a met gear and the top speed seems to be about the same every now and again i'll be going 1-3 mph more than i was with ruck gear but my accel is pretty well hampered .

so i'm gonna play with VERY light weights in the var with the met gear and if it still is just eh then i'll go for a ruck gear with slightly heavier weights than i'm using now .


i'm currently stock bore , stretched slightly smaller tire , kn variator and 6grams .


gonna try same setup but with 4 or 4.5 grams , and if that still sucks i'm going to try ruck gear with 6.5 or 7 gram weights


i'm hitting 46-48 top speed right now but accel sucks compared to what it used to be . fatty or not .


with fatty , red contra spring , 6 gram rollers and stretched tire i would out accel almost ALL 50cc rucks around .

now i out accel virtually none but my mid is still good , and my top speed is still a little lacking so i gotta play around . and or get a 140 stretched onto the wheel vs the 130 .

or something .

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:30 am 
So I have the BB , Pc20, BSS HO cam, 4.5g sliders in a Kitaco variator , stock clutch , Met gear , Kenda 140-90/10's . Acceleration is good , I climb hills at an average 30-35 mph , flats I pin the stock needle all the time ( need to get a digital) .
I have no idea how to figure out the % of change from stock gearing ... help ?

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 Post subject: Re: GEARING DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:34 pm 
so hey soazrc i am with met gear so a 4.1% change

i'm trying to figure out the difference percentage wise from my tire normal to my tire stretched .

so the percentage change between my tire normal vs stretched is 3.1% (smaller)



i seem to have about 2mph higher top speed but a decent amount less accel .

seems like my accel shouldn;t have been compromised so much

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